Was anyone else completely disgruntled by the way “The Next Generation” series ended with the motion picture “Nemesis?” I thought that movie was a complete turd. Paramount ended a masterpiece of a franchise by crashing it straight into the ground.

Its like if Trent ended “The Downward Spiral” album with the song "Who Let the Dogs Out?" and never made the song “Hurt.”

Doctor_Zoidberg posted:

Was anyone else completely disgruntled by the way “The Next Generation” series ended with the motion picture “Nemesis?” I thought that movie was a complete turd. Paramount ended a masterpiece of a franchise by crashing it straight into the ground.

Its like if Trent ended “The Downward Spiral” album with the song "Who Let the Dogs Out?" and never made the song “Hurt.”

Been a while since I've seen it, but I know that some fans were unhappy. I'd have to re-watch it.

I just watched Generations for the first time since January of 1995. Loved it and I love the themes of life and death, of wanting/wishing and coming to terms with life and mortality. I thought that Kirk's death was fitting and appropriate and I like how he died with Picard at his side.

I think it was a missed opportunity that the character Q was never used in any of the motion pictures.

RhettButler posted:

armchair_handjob posted:

“Generations” was a palatable movie. I agree with the themes playing out well. Although I was not a huge fan of the idea and execution of the Nexus. I felt it created too many “well that doesn’t make sense” moments for me. But that can be overlooked, no movie is perfect.

The Nexus was my favorite part of the film. Picard's vision of an ideal Christmas with a family that he never had and seeing his dead nephew one last time was beautiful and a little haunting.

The Nexus succeeded at adequately providing a window through which we could see the projection or manifestation of both Picard’s and Kirk’s ideal reality or longing for a second chance at missed opportunities. Sort of their own personal journey into answering the questions, “Is it better to give up what I have to get what I want, or to give up what I want to keep what I have?” This was new ground for exploring each character, expanding their persona, and that part was well implemented.

The issue I have is with the physical (or metaphysical at times I suppose) mechanics of how the Nexus worked. The Nexus according to one source,

“The Nexus is an extradimensional realm in which one's thoughts and desires shape reality. Inside the Nexus, time has no meaning, allowing one to visit any time and any place that one can imagine. The entrance to the Nexus was a violent temporal energy ribbon which crossed through the galaxy every 39.1 years.”

The startrek.com database defines it as,

“A nonlinear temporal continuum in which reality appears to reshape itself in fulfillment of a person's innermost wishes, accessed by way of an energy ribbon that crosses the galaxy every 39 years. The few who have been to the nexus and returned describe it as a euphoric experience, like ‘being wrapped in joy.’”

Ok, here we go. Scene, Veridian III, Picard is unable to thwart Soran from destroying the star. The result, Veridian IV, a planet with a population of 230 million is destroyed. The Enterprise and its crew are destroyed. Both Picard and Soran were pulled into the Nexus.

Within the Nexus, our normal time has no meaning, but the energy ribbon that serves as a gateway into the Nexus is within the normal space-time continuum (this allowing beings of one continuum physical access or passage into the Nexus being a separate continuum.)

At this point we now have four characters in the Nexus. Three of them have been wholly absorbed from this continuum into that of the Nexus, Being Kirk, Picard, and Soran. The fourth is Guinan who is actually no longer wholly absorbed into the Nexus, but is merely an echo or ghost resulted from her past brief entry.

Now inside the Nexus Picard convinces Kirk to “make a difference” and they decide to go back together and stop Soran. Here is where I see things get glitchy. At this point Picard and Kirk from the Nexus magically appear on Veridian III prior to the launching of Soran’s missile. For Kirk this means that he traveled from the Nexus into the future, for Picard from the Nexus into the past.

Issue A Locality: If you can’t magically transport yourself from anywhere in this continuum into the Nexus, then you shouldn’t be able to magically transport yourself from the continuum of the Nexus into wherever you feel like in this continuum. If the gateway must be crossed to get in (as is obvious in the movie) then to get back out that same gateway must be crossed and the movie did not support this.

Issue B Temporal: Although the Nexus itself was its own continuum not subject to the timeline of our continuum, the energy ribbon that served as the connector between both continuums did at one end exist within in this continuum, so it was subject to this space-time. This is supported by the startrek.com database which says the Nexus was, “accessed by way of an energy ribbon that crosses the galaxy every 39 years.” So it is moving through the boundaries of this space within the boundaries of this time, as it would have to for beings of this space-time to have access to it. What this all means is that within the nexus you are not subject to our normal time. But upon leaving the Nexus you would be passing the gateway which is subject to the normal space-time of this continuum. As a result the instant you willed yourself out of the Nexus, you should simply be spit out of the energy ribbon wherever and whenever it happened to be in this universe.

Issue C Timing: Assuming that Kirk and Picard could leave the Nexus and just appear at any place or time as the movie portrays, why didn’t they just appear say, six months or so prior to the launching of the missile into the star. Then Starfleet could have simply posted a security team on Veridian III, and when Soran came to build his missile base they arrest him. Everyone lives happily ever after.

Issue D Soran: Remember there were four characters in the Nexus. Guinan was forcibly removed by transporter (I believe), Picard and Kirk willed themselves out. But what about Soran? He was absorbed through the energy ribbon at the same time as Picard. Soran was not transported out again, and he did not will himself out as did the other two. Picard and Kirk while in the Nexus never even came across Soran, so clearly they didn’t take him out with them. This means that Soran technically should still be existing in that nonlinear temporal continuum even after Kirk and Picard leave. He wins, game over.

Issue E Numbers: Picard leaves the Nexus and travels into the past to stop the missile from being launched as it was before, leading to his original entry into the Nexus with Soran. It seems that this time though there should be TWO Picard’s a Kirk and a Soran. One Picard naturally belonging in the timeline, and one appearing there from the Nexus. Now history loses a Kirk, but gains an extra Picard. Yet not in the movie.

Issue F More Numbers: Out of curiosity, what happens if Picard and Kirk together fail to stop Soran. The missile is launched again. The ribbon wholly absorbs everybody again. Now in the Nexus, how many Soran’s, Kirk’s, and Picard’s are there? And if they decide to try and stop Soran again, how many come out of the Nexus this time? This ones just a mess of a paradox.

These are some of the issues I had with the workings of the Nexus. Moments that had me scratching my head. But yeah, I should just relax, its only a movie.

armchair_handjob posted:

But yeah, I should just relax, its only a movie.

Maybe. But you do bring up some good points.

Haha ^ I remember that Data scene quite clearly, that one is definitely a golden moment.

armchair_handjob posted:

Joan Cootes posted:

My daughter and I watched "Hide And Q" today. I like the part where Picard quotes from Hamlet: "What a piece of work is man..."

There is something about Patrick Stewart (perhaps his theater acting skills) that makes his characters and his lines memorable. A quality about his voice commands attention, but at the same time it is appealing and pleasant to listen to. I could sit all day and listen to his voice even if he were just reading a list of cooking ingredients.

One of my favorite S.T. quotes comes from Brent Spiner in Generations.

Data says: "I just love scanning for life forms!”

And then he sings:

“Life forms,(Data presses console accordingly)
You tiny little life forms!
You precious little life forms(Data snaps and claps)
Where are you?"

It’s making me smile just thinking about it.

I remember that scene!!!! It's just after Data gets his emotion chip implanted, if I remember rightly.

armchair_handjob posted:

Another classic Star Trek moment

That was funny. I also liked the one where the cast of TNG was beamed into Stewie's room and spent the week with him. Stewie also said that he had a cousin, Quark Griffin, and then they showed a clip of a Stewie looking Quark talking at a bar on DS9 with Odo, voiced by René Auberjonois, who played Odo on DS9.

My favorite star trek episodes,

The Original Series: “Balance of Terror” (Kirks a frikin tactical genius)

The Next Generation: “All Good Things...” (this ending = perfection)

Deep Space Nine: "What You Leave Behind" (you have to admit, the Battle of Cardassia was the balls)

Voyager: “Year Of Hell” 1&2 (great episodes, too bad it technically never happened though)

Enterprise: “Carbon Creek” (Erm, well, cause I get to see that silhouette of T'Pol’s boobies in this episode. Too much of the series was forgettable.)

RhettButler posted:

I have stated before in this thread that I feel that Enterprise was a fine show. For whatever reason, it didn't resonate with people the way the other series did, but I think that Archer/T'Pol/Trip/Phlox measures up to the cast on any of the other shows.

The problem is, this was the Star Trek that nobody was asking for. We were force-fed it. “Enterprise” wasn’t necessarily doomed from the start, but it was a huge risk choosing a prequel as the setting for the series. Braga and Berman knew (better that any of us) that Star Trek is a universe with it's own preexisting mythos. They had to know that if they deviated from that history too much, there would be hell to pay from the fans. And yet, knowing that, they still couldn’t resist themselves.

The Xindi, the probe that attacks earth killing seven million people, the Delphic Expanse, the Temporal Cold War, the planet-destroying super weapon (that was minutes from destroying earth), none of these were ever even mentioned in previous Star Trek canon. Watching Enterprise, it felt as though Braga and Berman were deliberately trying to rewrite Star Trek history. This is why I had difficulties identifying the series as being true Star Trek. It felt more like watching a different sci-fi show like Babylon 5 or Stargate SG1.

Seasons 1 & 2 at times felt slow and meandering. In season 3 too much time was wasted in the boring Delphic Expanse. Many other things felt pointlessly forced or out of place like the Borg, the human augments, all the time travel, the mirror-universe, and yes William T. Riker. It was like they were trying to say, “See, this really is Star Trek. Now accept it!” This was ashamed because there was such fertile (and preexisting) ground to explore and flesh out with the war between the United Earth and the Romulan Star Empire. Oh, the lost opportunity.

Also, I’m not sure why, but they went out of their way to portray Vulcan’s as petty, paranoid, underhanded, and warmongering liars (or at least a depiction of the Vulcan High Command). This is a complete anti-archetype of how Vulcan’s have otherwise been portrayed (with a few exceptions, like of Sybok Spock's half-brother). Additionally, far too often when the ratings were low, the show fell back on showing skin and racy scenes (thanks Jolene Blalock) to try to boost the ratings. Once again, Braga and Berman knew all of these things they were doing were going to be a magnet for criticism. I think that’s why many fans who treat Star Trek like a religion, have that disdain for “Enterprise,” because they feel that it served to undermine their religions origins. Whereas the casual fans just see it as entertainment, so they don’t get or don’t care about these issues.

Yes, Enterprise did have some good episodes. It had moments where it was on par with the rest of the Star Trek franchise. The cast and acting were solid. I think the series on its own merit would have been fine, if it didn’t have the title “Star Trek” attached to it. For this one Rick Berman and Brannon Braga would have been better off creating their own separate non-Star Trek fictional universe through which to tell their stories.

RhettButler posted:

If the show had been renewed for another season, there could have been a Romulan/Earth storyline, which would have been great, they just ran out of time.

There was a reason time ran out, because too much of the time that was had got pissed away. Ultimately, Star Trek is a product. Like any other product, it is the consumer-body that makes Star Trek a success or a failure. Acceptance or rejection by the fans or consumer, that is the true litmus test here.

By the end of season 1 and the beginning of season two, the writing was already and unmistakably on the wall for “Enterprise.” The ratings fell dramatically from the pilot to the end of the first season, and continued to decline each progressive season, until in due course the plug was pulled.

If these issues had been addressed earlier in the game, the series may have run its full course and met its much greater potential. If Braga and Berman needed to have the Xindi, the Temporal Cold War, and the planet-destroying super weapon, in order to explain the origins of the Federation of Planets, OK so be it. But these events could have easily been covered in the first season and a half to two seasons, allowing for progression into the real meat (the Romulan/Earth war) by seasons 3 & 4. Of course there is no guarantee that this would have saved the series, but I believe this would have compelled more viewers to watch and it would have been a more stable ground on which to get a foothold.

That being said, I think you’ve convinced me to dust off my box set of Enterprise and watch it again, its been awhile.

I also really liked the episodes that you named for your ENT favorites. As for season one being inconsistent, the same goes for the first two seasons of most of the shows in the franchise. The TNG episode with Joe Piscopo, "The Outrageous Okona" is about worst episode of any of the Star Trek shows.

I also really liked Combs. Shran and Weyoun are two of the best characters in the franchise. Weyoun's gushing over Odo and the rest of the "founders" was pretty funny and memorable. Weyoun was a real interesting character. A "bad" guy to be sure, but not really "evil."

I'm skipping between TOS and TNG right now. In the middle of "Clues." I was thinking about watching TMP today. Been ages since I've seen it.

I agree with a lot of your criticisms of Enterprise, and also agree with the over-saturation argument as well.

The show had flaws, but the plug was pulled too early. There were some fine stories and the cast was suburb.

As for TNG:

Just saw "Half a Life," beautiful story.

"A Fistful of Datas" is great. First time I saw it in ages.

^^^The episode was called "Masks." It had the Enterprise-D crew excavating an ancient library that takes over Data, causing him to live out several personalities, including an ancient sun goddess. Data is even compelled to make a mask representing the role; Captain Picard has to don a mask representing the alien culture's moon god in an attempt to restore Data to his original self. (The ship also gets a partial remodeling by the alien library in the process.)

I don't remember exactly which season of The Next Generation this was in, but you could find that out on IMDB or a similar source.