guru007 posted:

beeetlejuice posted:

how do you make GREAT music CHEAPLY?

Great music isn't necessarily expensive to create or record anymore.
It's just a really, really hard thing to do - it takes talent, effort, experience, originality, intelligence and persistence. When we lack any of these things we usually have to pay someone (producer, musician, manager, mixer, publicist, etc) to provide those qualities we lack/need.
That's the expensive part.
Just my 2 cents...

guru007

People could be lacking in some areas, but don't you think they can learn? They can learn to mix their own music. They can learn how to advertise it. They can learn how to manage their own affairs when it comes to their music. Don't get me wrong, I think we do need some people to help along the way but I believe a majority of what we want to do in life can be self taught if we apply ourselves.

Trent, jumped over to this from your Twitter post..I think they way you're engaging with fans and the public is fantastic - trolls and c***ts aside - fuck em, they'll get bored and find someone else - I like reading your stuff, I like your comments, I like your commitment to being an actual person!

I'm around your age and music has always been a driving force in my life, I haven't worked in the industry for 20 years, but have remained connected and still love to go to live bands in small places, listen to new music etc. I've been watching the development of the 'new' music industry with such interest, remembering back in the day when management and record companies basically treated the musicians like babies - keeping them in the dark, making decisions for them, and telling them where and when to show up... As the 80s largely proved - it wasn't good for music! Its great to see musicians and artists taking their careers into their own hands and of course the internet has really made this possible in a big way.

I couldn't agree more with what Trent says, I have a few observations to add for what its worth..

You missed the number one & most obvious thing, you have to be good at what you do and believe in what you do - whatever your style of music it will rise to its own level & the internet makes this rule more applicable I think - people have a short attention span and will move on quickly. As people often comment.. there is so much content out there in cyberspace, how does anyone get noticed? I have a little more faith - I think that you will still stand out and be noticed amongst the crap, but you have to be very good musically, technically, live and on record.. probably better than in the old days & very professional in your approach (I don't necessarily mean commercial). Having a great website will not replace hours of rehearsal and practice time!!!!!!!

You can't do this part time.. or ad hoc.. As Trent says, building a loyal fan base is key to success in this context, having a loyal fan base who spend money with you year in and year out means that you can make a living and continue to make music - you don't need massive chart success to be like a RATM or even NIN.. just solid fans who buy merch, turn up at tours, buy music and spread the word.... For instance - I've been a RATM fan from the start, I probably spend $40 Au a year on average with them.. my son is now a fan too.. Same with say, NIN - Jane's Addiction - Billy Bragg - Neil Young - Clutch - Muse.. all have done pretty damn well out of me over many years, but they've repaid me by remaining constant, putting out evolving and interesting product, touring pretty regularly, and remaining in touch with their fans to some extent (although I agree about the RATM site - its a bit of a pigs breakfast!).

Of course you have to keep your day job for a bit - but maintaining and developing relationships with a fan base takes hours of online time daily or weekly, plus the energy to talk to people at gigs, hang out with fans after gigs, be accessible, nurture relationships with other bands at the same level.. not to mention the daily chores of running a band, and finding time to write, rehearse etc etc etc.

While I firmly believe artists and writers in particular should be paid for their work - I also think the value of distributing your music as widely as possible is immeasurable...its a really fine line between theft and promotion! As an up and coming Australian band, Mammal - who have been making excellent progress and easily could serve as an illustration of what Trent talks about - say at every show, buy 1 CD - burn 100 - give them to your friends.. spread the word..

I don't know about America - but here in Australia, despite a dive in the late 80's - live music is on the upsurge again & as Trent says - playing live is crucial crucial crucial.. 1. Once you start to fill venues you will make money to put towards recording etc 2. You will sell merch and cds 3. Your reputation will grow, people will tell other people etc .. The other crucial thing is that mailing list.. it is the golden key!

.. getting back to my case in point - young Australian band Mammal .. again, they are a great example, they are probably among the top 15 live bands I've seen - in over 30 years of seeing live music around the world. They are excellent musicians number one and put on a blistering & seamlessly tight live show which totally engages their audience & still manages to be 'real', raw and hard edged.. Their music is not that commercial - being political hard metal/funk - but it is certainly sing and dance along, fist in the air, crowd surfing, moshpit madness stuff.. As soon as they could afford it they spent a shitload of money on radio mics and radio gear so each band member can get out in the audience, on the bar etc..They're always thinking about what they can give their ever growing fans, there's always new merch with interesting artwork and designs, they followed a live CD with a studio CD - got some airplay and charted in the independent charts.. now they're putting out another live CD and DVD - again, they've spent money doing these really professionally... They're doing bigger and bigger sell out shows now, but they still go out after every show and engage with their audience, talk to people, sign stuff, take photos etc.. they have a simple website, a forum, facebook and twitter - plus all the other suff like lastfm, musicglue etc etc etc - there are so many ... their communications are personal and friendly and to the point.. so far, they are forging a good path.


In the Australian context - people could do worse than the example of John Butler... another independent artist who has made the mailing list the key to his success.. he has an incredible business brain and a single minded focus on the end goal.. from his beginnings as a busker he put every extra cent back into achieving his goal, which he had obviously clearly defined from the start, & did not deviate from his path. Being pretty damn good at his music it seems to be working..

Sydonia are another Australian band (melodic/prgressive metal) on the up who seem to be doing things well & who captivate me anyway live and on CD .. Although they are at a much earlier stage in their career than Butler.. Again, they stand head and shoulders above many other bands at the same level musically, performance wise, and they have that extra X factor..which should mean they are the ones to rise above.. all things being equal!

I don't know about America - I imagine there are a lot of similarities, but on a much bigger scale..

One more thing - Festivals! Festivals (here anyway) are one of the few opportunities teenagers have to see live music, and great opportunities to get new fans and attract the attention of people walking past your stage on the way to see someone else & maybe get bigger bands or artists to notice you and perhaps extend a helping hand or some support. By being fantastic live - you have more likelihood of being invited to play small stages at festivals.. and will stand out when you do!

See - loyalty - loyalty means you talk about your favourite bands to anyone who will listen... loyalty means your fans WEAR your merch (well not me..too old), my 14 yo son is hardly ever out of his Mammal t-shirt or Sydonia t-shirt and has a collection of other band shirts he wears around town, to the skatepark etc.. people ask - he gives them the lowdown.. they listen to the music .. and so it goes on! Example ... I've just namechecked two young bands who I love on an international forum.. if even 2 of you go to their website or myspace and like them.. and tell even 2 of your friends.. the snowball keeps rolling!

Anyway - Trent - see how great it is that you're communicating.. you're getting discussion going, you're being informative, you're 'giving back' and you've made me spend half an hour writing this when I should have been working!

I'm a lazy, lazy man but that is okay because I will just wait for fate to do for me what should be doing for myself. Just kidding...I don't know...play live, sell your CD at the show and maybe you can cover your gas money and get a Nutrigrain bar for dinner...It sucks having a "real job" and it makes being in a band almost impossible and terrifying... I'm in a fairly cozy rut but I'm still young enough thus stupid enough to believe in myself and my band...so, I don't know... enjoy it, you have to, and though we are all driven by revenge for those who never wanted to have sex with us in highschool prepare to constantly be humbled and humiliated, don't get in it to party in Hollywood, you can get drunk anywhere in the world! ...make T-shirts, you can't download a T-shirt...and above ALL ELSE...DON'T SUCK!

That's what this guy is saying!

And I didn't even plug my band!

do you like metal? Goatwhore stole the same skull we stole off google even though they have access to all sorts of resources in terms of artwork and the like, but whatever...what are the odds?

before myspace dies!

myspace.com/architectsoftheaftermath

Trent posted:

Every piece of music you can think of is available free right now a click away. This is a fact - it sucks as the musician BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS (for now).

Trent,

You said, "for now." It is hard to imagine this mending any time soon. People don't seem to think that taking someone's creation without exchange for it is stealing. The only reason it is FREE is because there is no way to harness the beast that is ever growing and expanding, the internet. The death and rebirth of illegal download sites is digital nature. The real problem isn't a non-sentient hard drive, or the massive amounts of steal-sites, it is the person in front of the screen choosing to "click".

The game has now become how to redirect these screen-heads toward paths that artists are forging.

I get it. One of the most valuable commodities is information. Give a record to gain a fan. Take one loss to gain a future of wins.

But does this ever really stop? It is either wait for people to become ethically responsible or police the hell out of the internet. I like to think the former will happen but not if we keep swallowing the blue pill.

btw, myspace isnt dying,.. its just phasing out, but it will phase back in about a years time.. not what it was in the beginning.. but its gonna turn some corners in a bit.

At the risk of this becoming off topic for the music room...

juniperus posted:

Trent's model, above (in a very modified form), is what I've been trying to do: I get the vast majority of new sales via word-of-mouth recs (a number of peeps collect my stuff), I get my work & name eye-time by donating a LOT to charity auctions (which amounts to giving music away), and I spend time on my lj talking pottery, answering questions, and posting step-by-step photos. I don't have a website separate from etsy, and I need that - if I could distribute electronically I'd be thrilled - postage (esp int'l) is a bitch.

I'm planning to do somewhat the same thing, although I've had some different thoughts about how to effectively give stuff away. I do need to put more thought into how to do that in a way that reaps some kind of useful benefit for me i.e. contact info. The one thing that I already have in place is a website, although it still needs some tweaking. I've been thinking for a while about possibly adding a message board or something -- the setup is included in my website hosting package but I've just never implemented it.

juniperus posted:

That group of independent artists you mentioned - are they all-media? Do you find them relevant at this point, or just a small piece of the whole?

They are all visual media, and for anyone interested the group is called EBSQ, an you can find them here. I haven't been active in several years, so I'm not sure how relevant they still are. It started out as a way to help self-representing artists on eBay cut through the overwhelming amount of cheap, mass-produced WalMart art being sold in the art categories, and they did so by forming a community that worked to promote each other through the use of the "ebsq" tag on their eBay auctions. Each artist promoted the tag to their collectors and fans as a way to easily find quality original art on eBay, so each artist profited from the promotional efforts of the group as a whole. In fact, they were instrumental in getting eBay to create a separate category for Self-Representing Artists. But it's huge now, and eBay isn't the main venue for selling art online anymore. The group now provides portfolio and community services to member artists and the ebsq tag can be found on pretty much every online venue for selling art. It's not as unique as it once was, but they provide a lot of resources and support, hold monthly online juried shows that are a lot of fun to participate in, and actually work to draw collectors and artists together.

But I don't think that's exactly the wave of the future.

juniperus posted:

What sort of online models (in line with Trent's outline) do you forsee forming a successful model for artists? I'm thinking particularly of graphics designers who might be interested in working with musicians on the sorts of projects Trent listed. (Wow - Rob needs to weigh in on that, too!)

Yeah, probably Rob needs to weigh in on that. I don't know that I have a good answer. My gut instinct tells me that it's a whole different ballgame when you're not so much selling your work itself as a product, and instead selling yourself and your potential work -- it's more like looking for employment, you know?

Do you think , unfinished ideas and demos being put onto myspace are a bad idea .. I do it all the time ???

This is incredibly valuable to me as I'm gathering info and plans for part-time distribution for (very) independent artists. I agree with it 100% and it contains info, as basic as it is to you and so many, that I was missing.

Thank you so much Trent.

I'd love to see more on the subject from you and people with similar brainwaves.


wbp

cabbyj posted:

Trent posted:

Every piece of music you can think of is available free right now a click away. This is a fact - it sucks as the musician BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS (for now).

Trent,

You said, "for now." It is hard to imagine this mending any time soon.

Not nessessarily. The LA Times just ran an article about a meeting of tech/media execs where someone floated the idea that "addicted" consumers "may be willing to pay" $5 to VIEW Youtube.

Things that are free NOW might not stay that way. The question is whether Youtube's huge registry would pay and stay or take this as their cue to move on to the NEXT user-generated media cite.

cabbyj posted:

You said, "for now." It is hard to imagine this mending any time soon. People don't seem to think that taking someone's creation without exchange for it is stealing. The only reason it is FREE is because there is no way to harness the beast that is ever growing and expanding, the internet. The death and rebirth of illegal download sites is digital nature. The real problem isn't a non-sentient hard drive, or the massive amounts of steal-sites, it is the person in front of the screen choosing to "click".

As Jaye said, not to get terribly off-topic here, but there's no guarantee that the relatively unpoliced internet as we know it is going to last. There are plenty of discussions (look on places like Slashdot) about what directions it might take in the future-- we essentially have the Wild West now, and that too got policed and regulated like the rest of the US after a time.
That's how I read that remark about 'for the time being', in any case, and I may have taken it in completely the wrong direction.

On another note, YES to the advice about the Flash-heavy websites. Awful, takes too long to load, and I really dislike how it interrupts my usual browsing and keyboard shortcuts. New artists hardly need to inconvenience people to get to their music.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 10:21PM by Endlessly.

Right the fuck on!! I think it is so wonderful that you are helping people find their way through this new world of music. It might be lessons you have had to learn along the way, but you are teaching.
Carzy to think about how this art has changed. If my family would have had to do all these things to get play, I don't think they would have ever made it. Well Tom P. would have. I think he gave up unborn babies.
Video killed the radio star, Internet killed sells, the way it is going I hope my kids will still be able to see live shows! That is the bread and butter now!

Man, it's pretty cool to get marketing advice from a real artist! The information given in Trent's post is extremely intersting to me. That formula is apparently working for Trent since that seems how NIN has been made available to the fans since the split from the major label assholes.

Since Trent gave all that good info, I have a question that is related....Is it possible to be a successful (and profitable) musician without making constant live musical performances? I started to get serious about creating music pretty late in life and now work on creating music independently. Since all of the music is multitracked by me, I haven't been able to put together any sort of coherent setlist to play live.

Ok, back to my question...Is it possible to be fairly successful as a professional musician without playing live gigs regularly? (my idea of fairly successful would be the ability to provide basic needs for my family plus some money to use toward savings/retirement/etc. - basically make enough profit to be equal to or greater than my current income working for corporate scumbags) I'm down with giving away music while offering some tracks as downloads on amazon, itunes, etc....also merchandising and the other things mentioned by Trent seem like a progressive way to market a band/person. That being said, what does it take to make enough noise to get people to go to a website in the first place? Can it be done without playing live gigs? and if so, how? If anyone can give some intelligent input on this I would appreciate it.

MK

My first post!!

Losing my fv (forum virginity) to THE TRENT REZnor.

Ohhhh my gosh this is honestly some of the best advice I have ever heard!! I'm completely serious; for you see, being someone who has nothing to do with music other than my ipod, I was extremely concerned about how to get music from some of my favorite underground no-name bands. They have been struggling to find a way to get their music out to their fans without having to conform to "the man" and sell out like FOB. (Although we all must admit, they have fucking kick ass music videos). I heard a lot about Myspace, and how you can get the word out that way, but your advice seems so much more, I don't know...Sophisticated and thoughtful, like you've been there and lived it.

I had no idea you put so much thought and strategy behind everything you do. I knew you are a musical genius, and a computer/technical whiz, and could be a model if you wanted, but I had no IDEA you are also a business man. The many suits you must wear. I bet your closet is interesting And from those many pictures I have seen from the Webbies, I shouldn't be surprised you wear a business suit also...You do clean up pretty nicely. Where did you get that tie, if I may ask?

Anyhoo, you are an inspiration to all bands, big and small! You are the sole reason I tweet! I have bought your last 4 records online, and am a very satisfied customer. I think your business model should be THE business model, seeing as you are leaps and bounds ahead of the curve. To me, you are a shining beacon of strategic and musical hope, in these dark, trying times surrounding us.

Sorry, I know I am rambling, but I'm just so appreciative of you and what you do!

I agree with TR about removing Flash from your website. I just went to Tool's website to see who the opening band on their tour is going to be, and I was greeted with some godawful flash (which later directed me to a site with FRAMES. What year is it?). It made me want to throw things. I would have immediately closed that tab, but someone was pestering me for the info. I NEVER liked Flash, even back in my web design days. Flash belongs on advertising sites and on time-killer game sites, but is otherwise useless.

iancr posted:

Hi everyone. Ian Rogers from Topspin here.

(CFS)

CwF + RtB =$$,
ian

Wow. Guys, Top Spin's CEO just dropped us a line. Kewl!

Trent Reznor: The Pied Piper of technocrats? Whether it's his music or just his star power, he has the ability to draw the techs of the world from their cozy cubicles and the warm glow of their computer screens, off unto the unknown for adventure and discovery...

...fairly apt analogy actually. Like the town who's greed cost them it's children, those left behind have lost their future.

Ian, thanks for stopping by. I wonder if your news that Top Spin isn't actually available to the greenest of new green bands will require TR to amend his original post.... or am I misunderstanding something?

And I don't know what "CwF + RtB" could possibly stand for.