another really interesting example for giving away your creative work and getting people talking i caught wind of earlier this spring. a guy in the netherlands made this test film called "what's in the box?" it's a youtube video that people thought was part of Lost or a viral movie campaign... nope, just a cool video an independent film-maker made. he tagged it with keywords like Lost and Half Life, which both had pretty cool ARG's - put together a pretty simple and mysterious Web site.

due to the interesting subject matter and the target audience (which he marketed to via tagging), the video went viral and was reported on by Entertainment Weekly: [popwatch.ew.com]

EW also reported that the film-maker hopes to turn the short into a feature and has already received inquiries from Hollywood, including Twentieth Century Fox."

I'd call that pretty successful. Get a million people to look at your stuff and get your name out there.

Alright, HERE'S an interesting scenario that hasn't come up yet.

We haven't talked about the role of Government money. Jackson Pollock was one guy who received government grants to fund his artistic endevors.

Now, Pollock was a fine artist and I THINK this thread is talking about pop art, and no concept is lamer then government-sponsered rock and roll, BUT-

I heard a rumor (not sure if it actually happened) that England was going to prop up it's struggling music festivals with federal dollars, on the premise that music festivals create jobs and foster local businesses. Which poses an interesting "what if" scenario:

I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but it's true that times of great economic stress are traditionally the times when art, especially music and film, do extremely well. The Great Depression coincided with the Golden Age of Hollywood. In the post-war flight to the suburbs, the now almost-deserted cities became havens for artists and places where Jazz, Blues, Rock, the Beatnick movement, the Punk Movement, New Wave, you name it, some sort of economic downturn was a catalyst in making it happen.

It turns out, when people are out of work and broke, they're pretty willing to spend their money to rock their cares away for a few hours.

So now I wonder... what if we took some federal stimulus money and pumped it into the music industry? Sponsor festivals, send EVERYONE out on tour, drive ticket prices to affordable levels. An all-you-can-eat musical bonanza.

That would either start a real artistic renaissance or just make the problem of banal new music even worse. I'm not sure which, but it's interesting to think about.

You know I had never thought of the pay-what-you-want scheme in such a way. I've been thinking about how Trent has made mention of the low number of people that paid for Niggy's album and I think that it's a shame. I love to pay artists for their work and always try to find the best way to get money in the pocket of the artist I'm buying from. I wish more indie bands would put up Paypal links at a minimum so other artists like me can spread some good karma out there and support out fellow artists. But I guess not everyone thinks that way =(

Although - now that I think about it the person paying probably takes into account the fame of the artist. Someone like Trent who's sold millions of records might not entice someone to put money into as much as someone that has sold like 25 at local shows. However I think that's a problem with understanding. I think a lot of people, when they see pay what you want, still might think that record companies are still getting a cut from that when you're talking about bigger named artists. Just my two cents. Things I think on for my own project.

This is kind of how I've always thought about the "give stuff away" thing:

Say you're moving, and you need manpower to help get the job done. Instead of paying a relatively large amount of cash to hire movers, you pay a relatively small amount of cash for pizza and beer to compensate a group of friends to get them to help you out. Per person, the amount of actual financial investment on your part is far smaller, but the effort you get for the investment is the same. The people you enlist to help aren't evaluating their "compensation" in terms of dollar amount because you've given them something that's valuable to them in other ways.

It's kind of the same thing with marketing. If you don't have money to literally pay people to actively market your work, you have to find other alternatives -- you have to figure out who you want "working" for you and what you want from them, then find some resource you have that they really want to offer in exchange -- and for most artists what they have that their fans want is simply their work.

I cant wait for random internet music sites to blow that Radiohead bit out of proportion. But Reznor is right, and Sonic Youth said the same thing: its a one shot deal, a stunt. Am I glad Radiohead was experimenting with In Rainbows? Of course. Do I expect them to do it again? Of course not. Even Radiohead's fanbase wont be able to sustain that type of model, let alone bands of Sonic Youth's stature and below.

And I know I'm guilty of whoring out my favorite artists a lot, but check out Beck's new label-free website. He's getting it right, and seems to be right in line with Reznor in terms of simple, yet effective, reaching out to fans.

Thanks for the post, really affirmed some stuff I have been trying to work out recently.

Question, what are your thoughts on copyright? is it enough to get a Sound Recording and Lyrics copyright? or would you suggest also writing out the notes and submitting that as well?

Thanks again!

Trent, how do you feel, in retrospect, about the model you guys used for NiggyTardust? I realize it was somewhat experimental, but would you still recommend it for newbies?

Also, what about something similar to a Radiohead model where you don't necessarily "pay what you want," but accept payment in any amount while stressing that the record is free (making the donations somewhat disconnected from the actual record itself)?

And of course, thanks for this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2009 05:08PM by Captain Molotov.

Darktenshi90 posted:

does anybody really want the mass media attention that Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, or Katy Perry has?

Interesting note about that: Katy Perry actually made her career happen without playing a single show. Her first song "Ur so Gay" was an INTERNET hit before it got on the radio.

She got signed to Capitol Records before she'd ever performed a single show. Like Lady Gaga, she was brought up from the inside.

Your advice could just as easily be used by beginning authors in the book publishing industry, Trent. Provide a digital book and find a print-on-demand supplier in order to reach different audiences. (I am not a musician, but I pay close attention to your ideas because they do translate to other industries.)

One thing is for sure, we creative types have to become much more savvy about the business end of things.

Thanks for your thoughts. Keep them coming.

An interesting example of allowing your fans to utilize your music, and do cool new things with it.

[www.youtube.com] Keepon dancing to Spoon's "I Turn My Camera On"

This video was done by some researchers working on using robotics to interact with children with various disabilities, in particular autism.

The thing has two cameras for eyes, a microphone for a nose, and various motors. It cost a decent chunk to produce. The neat thing is that this became an odd unofficial viral video for both Spoon and this group of researchers.

Keepon ended up scaring the shit out of the autistic kids.

2 million views later, what started as a simple youtube video turned into a business for them, and I'm pretty sure generated some sales revenue for Spoon.

Both sides won, I'm sure there were no massive legal complexities involved, just some fans who were engineers, wanted to demonstrate their research and put music to it.

I love the idea of bands releasing really cool box sets with rare versions, vinyl, books, etc...its a wonderful thing. But i do question the new Pixies Box set coming out. Its a little tough for most people especially younger fans to buy a box set for $175 for the limited version or $450 for the Super limited Deluxe version. I cant imagine kids in college with no job or even just adults who are having a tough time in this economy can spend $175 or $450 on a box set of a band.

atleast Vaughan Oliver, the amazing designer, designed the box set, so atleast a great visual artist put it together and his work is highly collectible and has some value to it......But most people probably don't know who Vaughan Oliver is i imagine except die hard 4AD fans and other designers, and i just think maybe they could of done something maybe a little less expensive for those who cant afford the $175 version or the $450 version...Im not sure what that could of been, maybe just a few CDs and DvDs and smaller booklet, or maybe just sell the box set as individual pieces as Neil Young did recently? I know they probably want the audience to experience it as one piece, but i think you also need to think about what fans can afford, and with unemployment so high right now all over the world, it just seems a little crazy for someone to spend $450 on some CDs, vinyl and a book...

And its not like the music in the box set is anything extremely rare or New, its just their studio albums remastered on CD and Vinyl and a live DvD from 1991...So the only part thats rare is the artwork by Vaughan and its autographed by the band and Vaughan. and even though its limited to 3000 sets, in the art world 3000 is actually a lot. That quantity isnt really considered very rare. if it was under 1000 sets, maybe.

I collect Vaughan's work myself, and im also a graphic designer, so hes been a huge inspiration for me for a long time. But my jaw dropped when i saw the price tag on the box set and all i could think about are people who cant afford it.

I personally think NIN offered more with the Ghost Box for $300 than this Pixies set as far as music. No one had Ghosts, it was something completely new and they also offer a $75 version which is very reasonable....the Pixies stuff has been around for years and years, its nothing really new except as i said the Vaughan artwork and autographs.

Im a die-hard 4AD fan and Vaughan Oliver fan, so ill probably get it, but im just wondering if anyone else felt like its a little too extreme and was anyone else shocked or care?

thank you.

The best way to get heard is to play live




Do you have a stage show?
Concerts and shows were a method used to promote album sales, the reality is that the album isn't worth much today financially and the opposite is now true. In the early years of a band you will need to focus on your stage show and you will need to provide the audience with something greater than just playing live, the live show is your stream of revenue and your vehicle to get heard. Remember that playing live includes having the right choice of gear, you need to be able to travel with it move it set it up and tear it down and chances are it needs to be able to be done in bad lighting with cramped quarters. If your travel gear requires 60 minutes to put together and 60 minutes to take apart you've given up the live show before you started. Simply for your live show and make it as self sufficient as possible.


Are you building a network?
A great band is a good thing but a series of mid level bands can cause a 'scene' to occur. I have long argued that 'grunge' had as much to do with critical mass as anything else. Think of the many English music scenes on this one or Detroit Techno, or Georgia College Rock for that matter. If 5 bands emerge from a city or place for some reason they become the equal of 20 bands because a scene develops. It also becomes easier for people to put together a mix tape because they relate the groups together which also makes the band radio friendly because a DJ can play 4 - 5 tracks and link them together in an intelligent fashion.


Throw some events!!
When you throw the show you put the bill together, bring in bands you want to promote who are also throwing events, pay them as much as you can but also make the deal that you are playing their next show. Three years from now people will still remember the shows but they will have utterly forgotten who played which slot the opening band will have the same recognition as the headliner. The trick is to get basically a mini tour between 5 - 6 cities where the bands work together to create shows and cross promote one another. This was the model that 'raves' used 15 years ago to take a form of music that at the time had no commercial value and then cross promote and spread a scene with commercial value. With a circle of bands all promoting one another and one another's events you basically build a promotional web that will have more mass and be able to grow. You also create an odd credibility when you partner up with other cities to make your music part of a greater whole. Essentially you have created a mini label. You have done something more powerful at the same time you are creating a circumstance where people 'from all over' have heard and seen your band a few times.


College radio is still alive and its still your friend
The DJ at your college radio station will do anything to help you, don't be assholes to them. Go out of your way to invite them and give them the advance knowledge give them more than they will need to be able to talk about you while they are on air. As you will likely be your own recording studio, promoter, printer, event co-coordinator and pr specialist think of the college radio DJ as a member of your team and get them on board as quick as you can. Having 'swag' is also a very useful thing, a college radio DJ wearing your t shirt will at some level come back to you with people at your events. People at your events and at your friends events will come back to you in sales at the door and at the merchandise booth it will also lead to sales online. Beyond this!! if you have an event coming up in 3 weeks show up to all local DJ's with a CD that has a couple of tracks from each of the bands playing at the event on the CD!! I know it sounds bloody obvious but the chance of a DJ taking them and playing them all one after another while promoting your event the entire time for free is almost %100.


Familiarity sells
When a band is linked to another band people will find them. I think of how many bands I 'discovered' simply because they were related to the act I just saw, or how many bands I only knew existed because of artists joining them on a track or on stage. A band with a similar sound and taste isn't your competition they are your partner you can work together to create something that is more than the sum or its parts. People become familiar with a band and its sound through exposure and they will discover things that are linked to it. This again is the idea of partnering and working with others to create a sum that is greater than its parts. It also goes along the argument that when 10 people are wearing pins and tshirts the 11th is a whole bunch more likely to listen and promote you. When everyones friends are getting into something new you can't help but check it out and the easier it is to explore and connect with the further they will travel. 5 websites promoting 5 bands in 5 cities with events every month in one of them becomes a very powerful force simply because of familiarity.


Promote Promote Promote
Have a friend take pictures of you, take video of you, make candid interviews with you and take the top %10 of what they produce and use it. Beyond this have your photographer/videographer tape the psychos who are going nuts to your music, learn who is re-acting to your music and learn what they are re-acting to. Think how to keep there attention for 60 - 90 minutes by moving through a show rather than playing track after track. Get the news out keep it updated and promote yourself and your partner bands and events. If there is nothing happening in town but a solid event in a partner city organize buses if you can get cars and get people out there, promote the events and promote them for the partners always have something to promote. I know it sounds like this is someone else job and really it is, but when you do it you know it got done and got done the way you wanted it.


When is your next show?
Well established artists and well funded acts might not need to focus on this but bands that are just starting do. No matter what you always need to know the date of your next show and the next show after that. Greatest trick I saw was a guy who printed the next shows details on basically business cards with the band logo and then handed them to everyone who came up to him to comment on the show. People need to know when and where they can see you next and you need those same people at your next show everyone wins when you promote yourself. Next off bands that advertise their next event become well known to the independent promoters and believe me they get prime billing. If I know an act is going to promote the shit out of my next event believe me I will book them over and over again and beyond that I will tell other promoters to book them. People will quickly begin to travel for shows and cities so be prepared to pimp events at home when your out of town and vise versa have the info in a form that you can hand it to someone.


Friends are important
Do you have a friend who went to a school somewhere on the other side of the country? chances are you have a few!! if they can promote you if they can get your music heard they could be key in getting a small local scene to spread. Think of the 'artist' movements and of the underground cultures that have taken off over the years, in general there is always a story about a band that had a friend who introduced them to a DJ somewhere along the way. Those friends can be the biggest reason your album gets heard in a city you have yet to see.


Learn to Silk screen a t-shirt
It costs next to nothing to build one of these, t-shirts cost almost nothing as well. Down time can take $100 and turn it into $1000 worth of merchandise and if they don't sell you can use them yourself. The t-shirt is the most overlooked form of advertising on the planet, and most people don't realize that small batches can easily be done at home without any serious investment. Take a box of t-shirts along with Cd's and your next show mini flyers to any show you play nothing lost if you don't sell anything, nothing ever gained if you don't bring them along.




If you want to be heard throw the events and put yourself front and center No amount of myspace is going to come close to the effect of throwing the shows. A network of shows that lasts 3 years will draw people from an entire region and will create a 'label in a box' which will not only be heard but it will be easily able to control its own destiny. People are also impressed by size and scope, 5 or 6 key bands in as many cities along with 3 or 4 local bands that naturally develop will allow for shows that have more people and more happening at them. These mini DIY festivals are able to create photos and promotional material that show large numbers of people at events, for some odd reason (south park screaming teenage girl effect) people love to listen to something that has been validated by large crowds. Scene after scene has developed because groups got together and acted in unison, the odd part is that its also profitable, you can actually make money on live shows and you can do it without handing it over to basically anyone. 10 - 20,000 people at $25 a head adds up quickly and if between 6 cities your able to do a major show every 2 months you can likely pull it off. Beyond getting heard you will have the confidence of your backing and not feel slaughtered to agree to terms that you couldn't have a lawyer review. Starving makes a person easy prey for predators, but if you build your own basic network and series of events it is near impossible to take advantage of you. To be heard give yourself and those you want heard a venue, get each of them to sound a voice together and the volume will gain enough mass to call out over the noise out there. Give yourself the reach you need while giving others the reach they will need and ultimately you will have audience.

Its hard to throw an event don't get me wrong! But if you work with and partner with like minded individuals its amazing how well they can be put together.

well, very cool and innovative, but if you're too small band and have no fans... then it's the way to step into a great shit and sink in it! ...for example, i have a Myspace Profile and i think there are no people who add us with the reason that they like our music. Mostly Bands adding us to growing up themselves! THAT SUCKS!!!
just some less people give us a little attention and feedback! ...so i and my friend could forget about thinking sell "t-shirts, buttons, posters etc..." thats the way to become poor by success! cause nobody buy it!

Well, you can do this Way, but before you risk yourself, you should tour and build up your own little fanbase! Then there are people who would buy the stuff! So if the fanbase is required that's the kick to roll the rock and get success and money by Trents idea!

Yes flash sucks! Think this way: Make your Homepage Linux-Compatible!

Cool way of thinking trent... but it doesn't fit's to every small band! ...and Today it's nearly impossible to get effective success by this way, cause there are too many other bands in the web, who are talented and feelin the same like me!

Well, it's easy to say, the mainstream is the smaller book, and who want to read a big one completly? ...so bands, artist, like me don't get any attention!

I have some feedback on this, keep in mind i'm a computer programmer and not a musician.

For someone new and unknown one of the most important steps is to have a website or means of contact/PR rep.

As Trent was saying your website should be professional (its like a resume, yeah you could do a quick one in a word processing program but its meant to sell yourself it needs to be 1000%). Keep it simple, make sure that iPhones and other mobile devices can easily view it (which honestly means no flash or having a html version for mobile users)

Website stuff aside I think this point wasn't really hit hard, sell yourself. Contact local radio stations for airtime, even if its off hours at night. Find internet radio stations or satellite radio that is willing to play a track from your album. Don't hit just one specific market. Whatever your goal is here, one of your main objectives is to get as many people to hear your music as possible. Whether they like it or not is up to them. This is one of the reasons why a website is so crucial, if they like you they will most likely end up here.

About making money or what business model to use... In my opinion you should cut whatever album you have down to an EP to start, no more then 5 tracks (Make sure to have clean radio versions aswell). I think this would make it a lot easier to pick up momentum aswell as being able to market for a free/low pricetag. In other terms, if your fishing this EP would be your bait in hopes to get a single/"hit".

To Trent's comments about the Pay-what-you-want model, I agree with what he is saying but I also feel that this would be a good solution for many new and unknown artists.

You should take what people actually pay for your music with a grain of salt, the important part here is that whether its a dollar or less or more either way your still making money, and while some won't give you any money or a few pennies the opposite side of that is someone could give you thousands of dollars.

The biggest flaw with this model is that people don't get to hear your music before they decide what its worth or what they want to pay for it. So maybe you would be better off putting a "tip jar" on your website and giving the album away for free.

Success is something that usually does not happen over night, don't give up. Play shows around you, open for other bands, get yourself out there. Record some of your performances, post them online.

At some point if you do hit it big, your going to need help. I'm sure you can manage for awhile, but if 10 million people want to buy your CD you can't fulfill this on your own and you need to be ready with a plan or a business to handle large scale orders.


I wrote a lot more then what I planned on, sorry. Keep in mind that this is not my industry, and these are just my opinions.

Don't kill me