Firewalker posted:

Oh and it bears mentioning of this site:

[www.Bandcamp.com]

Which essentially enables artists to do just as Trent has suggested, only in one fell swoop.

Set your own price? Check!
Do that per song? Check!
Do that in various formats? Check and mate!

Plus it's a nicer front to introduce your music to people than myspace.

I'm glad I perused before posting as I didn't want to double post. I think Bandcamp really is the solution that us small town groups are looking for. They cover all the basics in terms of music. When you get to other forms of merch like shirts and whatnot... then you have to go to another site; which sucks because from my perspective I want my fans to be able to get it all from one site. Well - future fans =)

I'm glad that Trent posted this - but I think that the most important part of all of this is to make good music. Really that's the foundation. If people like what you do they're going to talk about you and you're going to get fans because you've made something that's connected with them. It'll definitely take longer - but even if you suck at the internet you know one of your fans will notice that you don't have an on-line presence and offer to help. Don't take advantage of said fan, but maybe think about adding them to the team.

Hoora for bandcamp!

But seriously - always give your fans a way to get money in your hands. I'm tired of seeing people ive stuff away and not let me pay them. I WANT TO PAY YOU SO LET ME!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 09:29AM by jhaysonn.

heathen_king posted:

people really do need to learn the new rules of marketing. I'm wondering if this applies to anything creative these days - not just music. what about aspiring authors? With the way big publishing companies reject manuscripts (and yet we seem to be overrun with stupid books), I wonder if it would be easier to get noticed by just giving your work away online. I mean look at artists and photographers... everybody's got a facebook, a flickr page, deviantart, etc.

You probably missed my post a bit before yours, but I think it probably does apply to pretty much anything creative. The old methods of marketing art in pretty much every sense are changing, and have been for a long time. Galleries and agents no longer control access to the art world, writers can self-publish their own work quite easily and relatively inexpensively, etc. And the catch is exactly the same -- the advantage of the traditional systems comes down to access and money at the expense of real creative control on the part of the creators.

You bring up visual artists. Yes, they've been using the internet as a means to circumvent the gallery system for quite a long time now -- I joined an online group of self-representing artists back in 1999, and even then the results were promising overall -- collectors liked the idea of being able to connect to the artists directly and be active in finding new, innovative work without galleries and agents filtering and force-feeding it to them. However, there are very few artists who've really found success being independent, mostly because they're simply trying to transfer the old rules to a new situation in which they simply don't work. The group still exists and is successful as a whole, but mostly because it's basically doing the same things galleries and agents do: they jury in artists and give them "credentials," market the group to collectors, give artists a sort of stamp of approval they can use to gain exposure. The only differences are that the member artists pay dues in lieu of collectors paying commissions, and instead of being part of a small group that's been "approved" by the system each artist is just one of thousands all fighting for attention. And very few individual artists are enjoying measurable success. There's the same attitude that if you want to make a living being an artist, you have to basically play the same game that the galleries and agents always have, and that the rules can't change. If you think about it, that idea is absurd -- if you don't think the traditional system works for you, what sense does it make to try and recreate it (only without the resources that would allow you to be truly competitive)? The rules HAVE to change.

I've made the mistake, too -- I tried opening my own gallery as a way to avoid having to deal with galleries, despite the fact that I didn't have the money, background, or connections that would allow me to really compete. (Yeah, I don't know why I ever thought that made sense.) It proved to be the single most detrimental move I've ever made in terms of my own art because it left me without the time and energy to actually create very much. I spent too much of my time and money trying to independently replicate and infiltrate the system that I didn't really want to be a part of, anyway. And before all that I tried the online bit. It's painfully obvious that what most artists online are doing to get their work seen (which basically amounts to throwing watermarked images up all over the web and hoping that people will send you money to get the "real thing" ) doesn't really work all that well for most. There are probably more deviantart pages than there are unknown bands on myspace, and I'd bet the "success rate" (however you want to define it) is about the same -- horrible.

Anyway, I'll be finally turning the keys to my gallery space back over to the landlord in a few months, and adapting Trent's suggestions seems the most likely new strategy to pursue. I'm looking forward to seeing how well I can make it work.

(edited to remove those fucking accidental smilies!!!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 09:35AM by jayetheartist.

I don't have anything new to add but I feel the need to get all happyhappy joyjoy here for a sec. This on-topic, open exchange of ideas and information is one of the things that makes this site so engaging. Thanks for all the new things to think about and the links to everyone's creative work (Barbie jewelry? How cool!).

Thanks for this Trent! This is my first post here, but felt I had to comment. I've seen so many people complain about how to navigate the music industry these days and it's interesting to read someone with some experience and a lot of success give a reflection of what they'd do now as a new artist. I've been to SXSW, MIDEM and some other things through the years and have heard some really awful ideas from labels who obviously don't know what is going on any more, to seeing someone I respect like Daniel Miller from Mute say some really disheartening things..

I've been a fan a long time and had a relatively "unsuccessful" career in a band 34,000 "myspace" fans, minimal record sales, small tours, some good write-ups, had interest from Columbia but they ultimately decided not to sign us as it was too big of a risk which ultimately caused the band to implode due to the other members discontentment with this fact.. hopefully they was some artistic success in there somewhere and it is always a great feeling when you've really connected with someone and made such a difference to a fan with something that began as just an idea in your head.

I really started music as being NIN obsessed and making admittedly very bad NIN-inspired music. As I grew older and matured as an artist, I've found my own voice (now it is more akin to somewhere between leonard cohen/nick cave and bjork if I had to "label" it, which i know is a weird combination), but was really heartbroken over what the "state of the music industry" is. I've begun recording again just for the love of it and just wasn't sure how to proceed but am going to follow these words of advice and see what happens.

Looking forward to the final Chicago show (and am glad the last one wasn't the final one, even though I loved Heresy & The Becoming in the setlist...) Thanks again for your music throughout the years, and for more recently opening up the vault and giving some musicians you've inspired a real look into your thoughts on the "business" of music these days.

I think in general this is the approach many people have to take when just getting started. There are equivalent analogies for graphic artists, web designers, programmer, and the like. You have to give away small things in order to hook people into purchasing bigger things. This is the approach I am taking for myself as a web designer.

In general, though, I think you are talking about methods to build brand loyalty and brand "love." It important that people understand this: every person is a brand and how you market yourself is very important. I think new artists have a lot to learn from what you have written and I also think seasoned artists have something to learn as well if they don't want to be a one-year wonder.

I wholeheartedly believe in mastering the various free or nearly free Internet communication services and technologies out there. It's tough, though, to figure out what's useful and what's a trend. I personally don't have much faith in services like Myspace and Facebook. Indeed Myspace is dying and Facebook is peaking, which means that it, too, will decline. In comparison, I think blogs and personal websites are more useful and enduring. I also think Twitter is useful for making wide announcements to an interested audience, but not so useful as a two-way communication tool. I can't say yet whether Twitter a trend, but I do think it has its uses.

I have to take a small issue with Flash. Flash is a technology that is often abused leading to a sight looking too "Flashy." I think the technology isn't should be confused with how some folks choose to use it. (For instance, a website can be made to look "Flashy" with Javascript). As with anything, figure out what you want to produce in the end, and then figure out the appropriate technology to get you to that end. Starting out first by saying I'm gonna use or not use some technology will only lead to heartache. My current understanding, though, is that it's rather difficult to stream music over the internet without a Flash embed. On the other side of this, though, Flash is not accessible by many mobile devices. As for "Flashy" looking websites -- well, simplicity is always good. It's always best to give the people what they want in as few as clicks as possible. And, again you also have to consider how people may be accessing your website. Of course bloated websites are no good for mobile users. At the same time, I always enjoy a good web spelunk into a deep interactive website -- granted, though, that's hard to pull off, and it may not actually "sell" anything.

Amazon and the like are also good fulfillment suggestions, although, Amazon, in particular, does take a nice portion for itself. I think it's worth it because it is very safe for the seller and the buyer, plus the seller has the infrastructure of Amazon at their disposal disposal which takes away a lot of the work and worry.

Great advice, Trent! I hope to see more postings like this .

Some great advice for someone like me. I'm just starting to get a few things going for my music. Just one quick question...

My friend found these two guys from the entertainment industry and one likes my band, while the other likes my solo-side project. One said he could get me a few shows with my band in the late fall(With the possibility of getting signed to a local record company in a few years [so he says anyway]), while the other said he could possibly get me my own backing band to do a couple shows with (Nothing was mentioned/said about being signed)...

So my question is, should I be staying away from these guys? Or should I let them promote my stuff?

Thanks,

David

(Sorry if it sounds kind of dumb, but I wasn't sure where or who to ask.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 09:48AM by Erase.

dreamerm posted:

Someone needs to do a case study on Jonathan Coulton.

He has a profile on a website where you can "demand" he come to your town. Once he gets a certain number of demands, he books the show. This has proved an almost fool-proof way to ensure he plays to a sold-out house. He recently did a UK tour, and the only reassurance he had that it would be successful was the number of demands he'd gotten.

He hasn't been getting rich, but he has been able to support his family without getting a day job.

Jonathan Coulton could sell out Boston on a weekly basis. To my knowledge, he hasn't been here since November, the rat bastard! (Granted, I've been out of town a lot since then... And, I had to race back from a LiTS show only to find his show sold out, and my only way in was to help sell merch.)

Another similar act that I've introduced to a lot of NIN fans is Jim's Big Ego, who still have day jobs (as session musicians, producers of world music, web developers, i.e., stuff that full-time musicians would benefit from knowing anyway), still plug away at putting out new records, doing small gigs, and who seem to have gone from bitter to relieved that they never got sucked into a major label. They're reputation grows very slowly, but it's been steady.

As long as you're not trying to be a Global Rock Star, and are ok with the possibility of having a day job, you can make music, and at least make *some* of your living at it.

The question you need to ask is "Why you want a career in music?"

Is the answer: "Because I want to be rich & famous (and be more judged for what I wear and who I date than the art I make)"

Or

"well, I'm going to be making music every day no matter what, it'd be nice to get paid for it, at least a little"?

<3
cThules

zuzz posted:

I was one of the bitches that bitched on Twitter, lol. [ link ]

I've had better luck driving traffic to my site using websites like Digg, Stumble Upon and Mixx then the music/profile sites (like MySpace etc.). In the long run building a proper website and trying to rank in the search engines for various music keywords is the best bet i think.

-Zuzz
www.Zuzz.us

thanks for the tip!

Interesting. Both the initial post and the comments. First time I've ever actually went through multiple pages of comment on this site. The people posting actually have things to say! How refreshing.

Couldn't help but notice how a few posters commented on the length of TR's post, as though it strained them to actually have to read that much. Such a sad ancillary comment on what immersion in the internet has done to us.

I mention this partly because it's become true in our music listening as well. It's so much easier to simply download a song or 2 that I know I like than to buy a whole album and wade through crappy filler.

What is your opinion TR on this latest news: Universal/TuneCore to provide marketing services for a flat-fee... [arstechnica.com]

Very good read. Even though I can't play music myself (so far - I borrowed a keyboard and am learning a few things), I definitely agreed with a lot of the points made here, especially regarding what the fan does and doesn't want. It's nice that an artist like yourself who is established still cares about the fanbase and helping out other bands. I think a lot of people forget that you're still a consumer as well as a producer.

My brother is the musician of the family, so I'll have to link him to this post. It'd surely be useful if he does decide to market music of his own.

Thanks for the nice read this morning.

P.S. Love the "with caution!" part.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 10:18AM by mlilnly.

Great advice, Trent. Imagine what the music business would be like if people actually gave a crap about what they were pushing. Thanks for taking the extra step.

Just curious - would you call yourself a Beastie Boys fan?

I couldn't agree more, in fact, the point about ' giving people a reason to return to your site' is very interesting. Being a longtime, hardcore nails fan myself, I've been returning to NIN.com everyday since the most recent front page format started, just to view new photo blogs. Any fan can find great interest in 'behind the scenes' footage.
It's taken from a vantage point, it's raw, and it's real. The quality is poor, and that makes it even more intersting. As if the fan is right THERE!

I think more artists should utilize the third eye durring shows, rehearsals, backstage, etc. Speaking of rehearsals... Nails where one of the first artists to utilize rehearsal footage, and market it as part of a package. Any fan would ADORE a chance to see their favorite band/artist in a vulnerable, raw state. Rehearsing. Trying to put the finishing touch on the live set before premiering it to thousands of fans (or in my bands case our girlfriends, sound guys and stage hands).

Trent, many great points. I also must agree with the use (or mis-use) of internet social networking sites. Why more artists aren't utilizing these is still a mystery.
They're all FREE, user friendly, and only help your cause. If your goal is to be the next Nickelback, well, then you are wasting your time on Myspace and Twitter. A label (if even the least bit interested in your music) will pull your pants down and attempt to use the vasoline if it's convienent for them. While doing so, they will market your music, look, and approach to the media world THEIR way. Congradulations, you have become a whore. I certainly hope that is a trend slowly decaying in this industry.

Thanks again Trent, I will be forwarding your post to every site I am involved with to help spread the word to other artists in my stomping ground.

- Michael Thomas/Kill The Academy

Well ain't this a catch 22.

Here's an interesting post, not too long, not too short, detailing some tips for indy musicians trying to build a fanbase in a world that doesn't listen to the radio and thinks a Gap commercial is a good way to break a new band.

And here's the public masses, taking this chance to wax all poetic, pat themselves on the back, and while they're at it say what they've "always wanted to say" because HOMFG, HE might actually READ THIS!!!!!111

So he gets his ear stuffed with some interesting but mostly redundant stuff while the people trying to actually engage in a conversation on the issue get ignored while their compatriots vie for the Star's attention.

....I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we CAN be smart, just not when Trent is around? Uh...that's a lousy point... how's this, YA CAN'T WIN. Ya, that one sounds better.

EDIT: Speling iz importent!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 10:55AM by dreamerm.

trent,

the advice feels spot on. i'm definitely going to take it, that's for sure...just one question that a few people have touched on here: what are your thoughts on touring (for the unknown artist)? do you think all the old-school theories of putting out an album and follow it with a tour is outdated now? should touring be done with a different mind set now? maybe less dates, more focused areas, etc...

thanks for this. it's fantastic!

(my current band: elwood emission)