Very Interesting. It seems like some of that advice could be applied to artists of any medium in the digital age. So when the work is free, focus on selling other things like memoribilia? That does seem to be a trend, at least in things like webcomics. But also capture attention and dive into psychological aspects of the artist-fan relationship... Give them more than just art. But where do you draw the lines in evolving social roles? I suppose the pioneers have it rough. Oh well, those are my random thoughts.

Thank you very much for this good advice. I'm in a band called Dem imonde, and it's good to know we are pretty much on track with the things you've said. We have tried to put ourselves out there as much as possible through the media, and have definitely given away more of our music than made money from it. That's just the way you have to do it when you're first starting out. You've got to do the work and, as you said, not wait for the telephone to ring. Thanks again!
www.myspace.com/demimondeband

I'm curious about the financial side of all of this. I'm trying to figure out where the money goes. What are the big ticket items for running a big tour or a major launch vs. a small one? What are the costs to keep an eye on?

You are right by saying that music is free because any song (or almost) you can think of is just a click away on some torrent site (even if they close the Ship now - there will be something else soon, just as there was a torrent life after Napster).

I also have the feeling that the huge major artists that tried to fight the dawn of the new www age hard - like Metallica - and banned videos from You Tube (although that was more the record companies really) and their songs from torrent sites (nobody dared to put up Metallica anymore being afraid to get fined millions $$$) lost a lot of ground due to that. They seem outdated and old-fashioned, dinosaurs. Slept the new wave away like the major labels.

While you managed to establish the image of being the flag ship of all long-time successful major artists today, that have managed to take the step into the Web 2.0 future. You are doing good and I agree with your advice. It is utmost important to get the word out, no matter what. And the tools are here, all around us. Even I can put up music, photos, run a blog ... whatever I want, and reach people I could have never talked to about ten years ago.

I wonder if you have discussed this with Alec Empire at the shows you did together. He brought up the question a few times on Twitter - what can be done in this everchanging music world to use the new tools and still prevent the small labels from dying and make it possible for the artist to make a living (well .. maybe try the Amanda Palmer 19.000 $ THE LOSERS OF FRIDAY NIGHT ON THEIR COMPUTERS trick. Not a bad stunt, Amanda, not a bad stunt, at all). Well, maybe head over there to ask him myself ... ;-)

Good update though.

"The Times They Are A-Changin"

It is the dawn of the age of unabashed creativity. First I would like to say thank you Trent for really keeping your eyes open and your soul not consumed by greedy swine of all the marketeers ;-)
No longer is the world controlled by what sells (Or soon it will change), No more are artists going to be dismissed by what they look like or what politically correct shock value they possess. Now creativity is going to be unleashed and awaiting someone/anyone to harness that power and change the face of the industry, out of this change is where growth comes from. From composers to minstrels through the 1900s complete evolution of music to come to this point of direct artists contribution straight to the ears and minds of anyone. Now is the time not to self censor, now is the time to say what we need to say in the world.
It is truly amazing to look off this cliff of change Trent, to see that the future has these possibilities of change. Your are pioneering these changes, putting an actual plan together and giving this amazing solid advice to all. Thanks again man! From my mind to yours.

A

MorgaNIN posted:

How much should the band release on their site at first? Should they put up everything they have right as they start it, or should they slowly release a little bit at a time? Also, how much do you think a band should put up just to keep enough interest in them at first? Should it be just a couple of pictures and a video, or maybe a bio and some music samples, or what?

I think you should put up everything you have as soon as possible, unless you have a LOT of stuff, in which case just put up the best stuff. Post new stuff as soon as you make it. For god's sake, there's no reason to be STINGY.

That's just common sense, I think. If you drive someone away from your site by simply having TOO MUCH CONTENT, they weren't really going to be fans of yours anyway.

lexeme posted:

A friends band in L.A. ( called 'Cosio' ) and a few other artists I know are going along these lines. They see iTunes as the first step to get music out there, then comes a physical release and hand made merch. Combined with a lot if gigs.

iTunes is definitely getting music out there, but you still have to get your name out there to get people to look on iTunes for that music. Props to them though.

I think it's interesting how few people I know actually pay for music. My roommates, neither of them pay for it. Their friends, don't pay for it. Most of my friends, don't pay for it. I pay for about 99% of the music I get these days, and if an artist has a way for me to download directly from their site (ie: NIN's Ghosts) then I'm happy with the fact that more of that money is going directly to the artist. I will always buy a CD, or some sort of merch at a local show to support the band. I guess it comes down to the fact that if the money is going to the artist, I'm very happy with it...but a majority of it going to some fella behind a desk...not so much.

I'd be interested to see how much an artist actually makes from a single purchase on iTunes. I would swear I remember TR saying in an interview that iTunes isn't the way for an artist to make money (so someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Now to read the replies, I'm sure several have already stated the same thing.

Thank you, Trent.

This helps me with a few projects I'm working on, not only with music, but with anything involving downlaodable/sharable content.

I currently have a flood of creative ideas and possibilities with the ability to explore the limits of certain boundaries.

Wicked.

I am wondering how to go about recording a good/professional demo without having a band? Is it possible to hire a recording studio and talk over ideas and have them help put it together with what they have? I am kind of a two man band. Have made a few songs via garage band and logic.. just to get an idea going.. but it is know where remotely close to the 'good' professional level it needs to be. If I could just fork out some cash and pay someone else to help.. I don't know. Ugh. :/

I read what your thought, It just doesn't apply to Music only these days, it applies to every single thing out, i.e. music, movies, applications, etc. The more people you gather in your database the more exposure your get the more people will get to know your work.

I work as a programmer and it's incredible how many tools, codes, etc are available online for free or as you said "one click away". I think and I feel the idea of an independent artist no matter the medium; music, movies will continue to gather more respect giving the position that many of them deserve.

About artists well establish your are right, it's can kinda easy to venture to be an independent, your case for example. But any new comer that really feels that his/her work is more valuable artistically than monetary well there a new way to let people know about you.

Always great to read your 'rumbling' thoughts !!!

Daniel, FLA

Great advice on marketing.
Looking forward to upcoming west coast concerts If you are still scheduling dates, any in the Phoenix area. Jobing arena in Glendale, Cricket pavillion, dodge theater, and celebrity theater in Phoenix. Have a great tour.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 12:35PM by MistressReznor.

That was very insightful Trent. I myself have a new/unknown band that has a very small following. I read that and I was very glad to see that I am already doing some of that right. I never charge for the music, and I always make it DRM-free, high quality MP3s, but I have been planning some physical copies just to make some revenue to upgrade my equipment... because I have pretty shitty equipment. Now, I'm not sure if this is good, but I am trying to avoid myspace all together because it just doesn't seem to be the right tool for my kind of trade. I'm not trying to be a trailblazer, but I'm trying to not EXACTLY follow in everyone else's footsteps. The music I make isn't really like anything I have heard before and I am trying to represent that by not really comparing it to anything pre-existing. As with Tunecore, I have been working with them (never finalized anything yet) and it is a very useful tool.

The line that I thought was the most important that you said was "...make them something YOU would want as a fan." Many people seem to forget nowadays that you are not making music for no one and money is randomly coming in, you are making it for people who are buying it and listening to it and even cherishing it. If you give them a paper thin digi-pack with no art work and a CD-R disk, no one is going to want that and your fans would be disappointed. If you do what you did with "Ghost I-IV" with all the different stages or maybe even what Paramore did with "brand new eyes" which was have a cheap CD version and a more expensive deluxe edition with a bunch of goodies, your fans are going to be more then pleased... unless they have no money. You have to give them the best you can give because that is how you build a loyal fanbase, GIVING THE FANS WHAT THEY WANT. Without your fans, you wouldn't be here, so you need to focus on them and what THEY want and not what YOU want. It's quite simple, but it seems to get lost in translation.

All in all, I always thought you had/have the independent music thing down Trent, and this is just further proof. You understand what us as fans want and you service that in the best possible way. That's why we are still here after 20 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 12:35PM by Doomguy13.

trent: have you seen this?

if not, PLEASE watch it. it is very informative about the direction we should be heading, and why the old industry is so fucking dead. ted.com is one of the best websites on the internet.. aside from your diggs and twitters and googles etc. i hope one day you'll consider going on it to do a talk about art, and the music industry.. and sincerity / integrity / merit / credibility / true emotion. lol.

but anyway, the point is.. i believe that the only way to kill the old industry dead officially is to use an advanced business model that doesn't consider music, or art, a 'product'. to me, all art should be free.. and be free.. if you know what i mean. i'm 21, and grew up with napster and bittorrent (and NIN, since i was 7 or 8 lol..), yet i highly value the aesthetic of albums, and high quality recording, etc.. and want to try to bridge that gap too.

the business model i'm talking about should stop trying to SELL music as a PRODUCT, and start trying to 'SELL' the SERVICE/EXPERIENCE of making the music. that is a direct connect from fan/audience to artist, and i really think that will resonate greatly with everyone. you burn the labels down by creating something 1000x better.. and if there was an aggregate portal website, no, even a fucking firefox plugin like 'COOLIRIS' or mozilla's new 'UBIQUITY'.. where people could go, and just be immersed in a free music society... the future of the internet seems to deal largely with creating a new GUI on top of the already existing one, just to create the easiest, most efficient path to any information or media you want.

after all, all improvements on the internet (and pretty much all technology for that matter) are about new ways of organizing data/info/media etc. i said a 'free music society', because everyone is clamoring for a place where we can all gather, and share music without thinking about the RIAA or labels or where the money goes. i said 'aggregate portal' because there are too many sites for music, videos/media, blogs, band websites, etc.. and they need to be collected. whether it be through a website, or a firefox plugin, or a hybrid, or both..

we can all share the same space under the right business model and parameters. fans should be able to donate (maybe nothing under $1.. don't try to tell me my music is not worth that) to their favorite bands instead of paying for music. (ads are always an option). fan clubs with t-shirts can also raise money. but anyway, digging up bands into the spotlight could be a huge deal. if all their profiles, websites, PAYPALS etc are aggregated into ONE PLACE/ONE PROFILE (for each band), via this portal site, or plugin.. then everyone can instantly be able to go there to listen, discover, rate, comment, discuss music etc.

ALSO! all the dying studios and engineers/producers out of jobs can BUILD INDUSTRY PROFILES. they can all gather their liner notes and articles on the internet and anything that shows their credibility and work.. that way.. when fans vote up and donate a new band into the spotlight, the band will have enough money to ask their favorite producer--who also has a profile (with some sort of financial limit for contact perhaps)--to produce or engineer their album. this would work for session musicians too, and anyone else you can think of in the industry. MUSIC SOCIAL NETWORKING. a FREE MUSIC SOCIETY.

fans can gather, artists can gather, industry people can gather.. all around this decentralized, sink or swim based model. fans WON'T give money to artists that try to screw them over. fans WON'T give money to bands that make shitty music just to fuck paris hilton. this business model is the fucking open source future we're heading into and it will judge music and art based on merit, and be uncompromising in it's purpose.

these are new times. creative commons should be required. this should be everywhere. lets fucking make the dinosaurs extinct. this is a movement. this is about true freedom. no middlemen. no commercial bullshit. i've been planning this website/plugin idea for 2 years now and i still have no means to pull it off. i swear it will replace the entire old industry. i'm struggling to finish my first album for $0 after being chewed up and spit out by an NYC studio working as an engineer/asst. producer/musician. i want to be the catalyst. i want to light the fire to this dead fucking bird and become the phoenix that rises from the ashes.

please fucking help me.. this is it, i swear. and once the music industry is done.. we, this demon of freedom that we're becoming, can turn our head away from the dead carcass of the music industry and set our eyes on.. everything. open source freedom. decentralization = no big companies controlling shit, only people.


okay so i got ahead of myself, but there's a chance someone very powerful and influential will read this. i don't think he fully grasps just how powerful he can be if he wants. or maybe he does. maybe that's the point.

but what's the point of power if everything is free?

i will fucking die for this if i have to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 12:44PM by maniacafrodisiac.

Still, once your focus switches from 'loving making your music and getting money on the way' to 'finding ways to get rich quickly', I'd say you've kind of dropped the ball.


EDIT: And I don't mean to say that's what Trent's talking about. I'm just saying that in response to some of the people's comments on getting rich



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 12:40PM by ArtsyBianca.

maniacafrodisiac posted:

everything. open source freedom. decentralization = no big companies controlling shit, only people.

No God, No Kings, Only Man.

You dirty red. The Russians are Coming, the Russians are Coming!

Sheesh dude. Settle down. This isn't the world at stake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2009 12:46PM by dreamerm.