Absolutely - excellent advice. However, I do have a couple of questions -

Do you think this sort of model would work for a non-English speaking, non-U.S. community? New media is widespread and international, no doubt, but music distribution is often times very different for, say, Spanish speaking music (no, I'm not talking about Shakira or Ricky Martin), since many bands in the latter category cater to a less tech-saavy audience. There are some really unbelievable bands out there - for example "Los Tres" in Chile, and they really don't distribute their music that way, and honestly, I don't think their fanbase acquires the music that way either. So could this model be modified to fit a different scenario?

Second - can a model such as this one apply to non-music related new talent (let's say, for example, an up-and-coming author?). I think it could, with variations on the original model.

Thanks again for sharing your insight.

dreamerm posted:

maniacafrodisiac posted:

everything. open source freedom. decentralization = no big companies controlling shit, only people.

No God, No Kings, Only Man.

You dirty red. The Russians are Coming, the Russians are Coming!

Sheesh dude. Settle down. This isn't the world at stake.

way to keep an open mind and decide who you think i am based on only a little of what i said. you win 97 internetz.

and yea, actually the world could be at stake.. i agree though, not in this forum it's not. not with all the egos here. i want to make this happen so i can take witness to it. i don't care about being a big ego leader guy. i'll do it if i have to though. it could be a domino effect.

re: tunecore

[www.pollstar.com]

UMG..............

Very good original posting - I even registered just for commenting some stuff, and might even check out some NiN albums. So, another way of gaining new fans, publishing insightfull stuff on the internet

I wanted to add some things not from a musician but maybe from an IT-Guys (and Music Fans) perspective.

- For an artist, in my opinion, the most important thing in being Web 2.0.-ish is to be honest. Don't try to do something that you don't really support. If you don't like myspace don't force yourself to fill a page there with mindless drivel. If you really can't stand giving your music away for free, don't. If you are not anti-Bush don't blog flaming Bush just because you need content for a blog. Potential Fans will notice if something is just marketing fluff and will not become part of your "cloud" when they don't feel you are showing them something real.

- As some people already remarked myspace, facebook and so on is full of crap. Nobody will notice you just because you are there. Nobody can absorb those social networks anymore in their entirety. Instead people rely more and more on what they relied on in the real world - people they trust. So your goal must be to make people feel related to you, trust you and feel encited to spread word about you in their "web". This is really what I feel is key to being successful using this model, its not just marketing, it is building a real, honest relationship with your fans (like a mariage )

- Don't worry about tech, recording and that stuff too much. Sure, make it sound as good as you can, but don't let yourself be stopped by the fact that you don't have 10k for studio time. Look at all the huge old Blues and Jazz artists - they recorded single track, analog, often all in one take. The tracks are cracking, stuff is off, the guitar to loud, the singer to low, whatever. And still their recordings transport more truth and feeling than a lot of todays stuff.

- Be careful with tools that for example automatically publish Stuff on multiple social networks. I am not saying any of the links posted here before are bad, but make sure what gets up is really the way you want it to be. Putting up nothing is often better than putting up a botched video, or a garbled blog post. Also don't feel pressured to do _everything_ - it's okay to not be on some services, just choose the ways you feel are right for communicating with your fans.

- Try to be creative and use imaginative ways to spread your stuff - get your song used in a youtube clip, do guerilla marketing, feel free to mix things up and experiment besides the beaten tracks of myspace and iTunes.

So, I hope this didn't come off as patronizing or anything. A final thing about the copyright issues and how to control what happens with your work - something you might want to look at are the creative commons licenses a simple and pretty straightforward way to control what can and can't be done with your work. - [creativecommons.org]

jayetheartist posted:

It's painfully obvious that what most artists online are doing to get their work seen (which basically amounts to throwing watermarked images up all over the web and hoping that people will send you money to get the "real thing" ) doesn't really work all that well for most. There are probably more deviantart pages than there are unknown bands on myspace, and I'd bet the "success rate" (however you want to define it) is about the same -- horrible.

Agreed--I've found deviantart barely tangential (for my purposes). I originally created an account just to track some (2D) artists I like, but was eventually badgered (by people who already knew me) to post photos of my stuff.

As a selling site etsy is easy for the non-tech savvy & has messaging and merchant systems. It's crap to customize, but I've used it as a low-maintenance, cheap (if I sell something at a show/sale through my local art institute they take 33% off the top, ouch - although I do keep showing regionally - it's a little prestige, even if there is little hope of winning $ as a mere potter), way to go about selling my pottery (and pottery is hard to sell online - people want to touch it, heft it... not to mention photographing pottery sucks). Trent's model, above (in a very modified form), is what I've been trying to do: I get the vast majority of new sales via word-of-mouth recs (a number of peeps collect my stuff), I get my work & name eye-time by donating a LOT to charity auctions (which amounts to giving music away), and I spend time on my lj talking pottery, answering questions, and posting step-by-step photos. I don't have a website separate from etsy, and I need that - if I could distribute electronically I'd be thrilled - postage (esp int'l) is a bitch.

That group of independent artists you mentioned - are they all-media? Do you find them relevant at this point, or just a small piece of the whole? What sort of online models (in line with Trent's outline) do you forsee forming a successful model for artists? I'm thinking particularly of graphics designers who might be interested in working with musicians on the sorts of projects Trent listed. (Wow - Rob needs to weigh in on that, too!)

It is refreshing to read an opinion from a musician who realizes what it takes for "the little guys" to get out there, and realize that going with a big label compromises everything you've worked for.

In recent years I have become more and more disappointed about the way the music industry is going right now. I am not in a band, but for several years ran the 'street team' for one of the most well known bands in my city. They started out on a mid-sized Canadian label about 10 years ago (the same label as Sarah McLachlan actually, despite being a rock band), but after several years of realizing they didn't want to change their music to satisfy "the suits" they got out of the record deal. They released a much heavier second album independently, did pretty much everything Trent mentioned here over several years, and released a third album again, independently. 10 years later and despite a sizable following in their hometown and a sprinkling of fans in Canada were never able to make a living from their music and have recently pretty much given up on the music industry. You can only do something solely "for the love of it" for so long.
They could have "made it big" if they wanted to - they were offered contracts with several big labels (Interscope being one), but declined knowing they would end up making it big on something that essentially wouldn't be theirs when the label got through with it and all was said an done.

It just makes me wonder if it is even possible for bands to get out there and get semi-well known on their own visions and their own music. Are all the "famous" artists out there just a product?
Sorry to be a downer, but... there's not much to convince me otherwise. How can things be turned around? Can they be?

Thank you for your advice, Trent. I'm not that serious about music, but it is a great hobby for me (at the moment). It is a possibility of something that could grow to be my life's work, but i'm not good enough... I have a Google website, that is completely for free, and I use the NewGrounds.com Audio Portal for some exposure. I also do remixes (here and elsewhere), which have gotten me some publicity. But is that enough? I have no band, just a computer, some previous musical experience, and the will to make music, similar to the way you were when you started NIN. But did you get lucky when you got your own start or did you really work for it? I am lucky enough to still be in high school, so my parents pay the bills (and I can spend money on equipment, etc.), but as I am eventually going to be paying all the bills on my own, how will I fund my music, assuming I will still be working at it? Where as an eventual college student can I get the money to not only make a living, but finance recording and things? Should I just get a job at a record company like you did, or is there some other way to go about it with a high success rate?

If you read this, thanks for taking the time.

P.S. I can attest to the fact that there are people who WORSHIP you today- there are about a million "Trent Reznor is a god" FaceBook groups out there, and I'm a member of a lot of them.

And of course, which label should I eventually try to sign with, assuming that Interscope still and always will suck?

Can pay-to-play be avoided? I don't know if these type of venues only exist in LA, but there a lot of them. Bands get suckered in to thinking the only way to get discovered is through these venues.

elliotjaystocks posted:

Great advice, Trent. I've been taking this approach recently and it's been working fantastically well, so to see you suggesting the same route is very reassuring.

It's possibly also worth noting that if you really do have to recoup some costs and you're not able to do this through gigs and merch, charging almost nothing for your music works similarly well: I've been offering a 'pay what you want' deal for my latest EP but with a minimum price point of £1, which is peanuts to most people. The money being made from these sales is being invested into the special 'deluxe' package for the forthcoming album, and buyers of the EP will get a discount on that, so they also feel like they're investing in something (and the amount is small enough to be throw-away cash if they decide not to buy the album).

Ummmmmm.... WOW! That's some great stuff and WILL buy ASAP!

Wasnt' sure where I should let Trent and the gang know about this message. You guys may have heard but in case you didn't, here's piece of very sad news. Martin Streek passed away on Monday. I know he always plugged NIN while he worked at The Edge in Toronto. I'm sure he would have wanted you to know. It's a sad sad day for radio in TO.

dreamerm posted:

Wow Green Hare. That's one doozy of a first post. Thanks for that.

No, thank you for having taken some time to read such an issue! I realised that my reply ended up being longer than the original post we were all responding to.

dreamerm posted:

If this person is as high-profile as you say they are, then I don't think internet-illiteracy is leaving them destitute. Their fortunes and reputation are probably secure. But it is a shame there's a thriving community of fans that this person doesn't seem to have the knowledge or the will to engage with.

Yup, very high-profile, I think that, if they stopped now, even their granchildren (if they'd ever have them, that is) would end up living from their royalties. I assume that it makes them think everyone who ends up involved in their PR, online presence et cetera actually wants their money...not to mention the domain hijacking I talked about.

dreamerm posted:

Hey, this person may be technically inept, but at least they're not suing their fans. Remember when Metallica did that? Their online support never recovered.

Nope, this person is the exact opposite. They claim that music should be shared and that there's no point if it's never played live...yet, they have done their share of sharing long before everyone else jumped on the bandwagon and they don't really play their own stuff live.

dreamerm posted:

It truly is amazing how awful some of these official sites are. I'm a huge Rage Against the Machine fan and their official website is laughable. No news. No exclusives. No interaction, and the (moderator-less) forum page is a cess-pit of militant conspiracy-heads and trolls. I'm certain RATM is not the BEST example of this, but oh well.

I should look it up, I'm curious.
One of the oddest official sites I've come accross was the Green Day one. They apparently ask for people to be fanclub members in order to access the forums. In my opinion, that's like stabbing social media in its back.

dreamerm posted:

But Metallica and RATM still sell $90 tickets by the truck-load. Maybe they are past the point in their careers where they need the internet. These guys could never make another dime on anything else they do and still have enough in the bank to keep them in private jets and presidential suites for the rest of their lives.

But obsolescence is painful to see, especially from someone who's contributed hugely to music and culture in the past.

I totally think such a thing can only backfire at some point. It's not like all their fans are computer illiterates. Plus, there's a high demand for this and it's not like everyone should be like some bubblegump pop girl and blog/tweet about every single thing they do.

There must be a suitable measurement for every band. I am partly with the person who said that fans should be given what they want. Partly, because some of the things they might want are probably ridiculous.

kuroneko003 posted:

I have to take a small issue with Flash. Flash is a technology that is often abused leading to a sight looking too "Flashy." I think the technology isn't should be confused with how some folks choose to use it. (For instance, a website can be made to look "Flashy" with Javascript). As with anything, figure out what you want to produce in the end, and then figure out the appropriate technology to get you to that end. Starting out first by saying I'm gonna use or not use some technology will only lead to heartache. My current understanding, though, is that it's rather difficult to stream music over the internet without a Flash embed. On the other side of this, though, Flash is not accessible by many mobile devices. As for "Flashy" looking websites -- well, simplicity is always good. It's always best to give the people what they want in as few as clicks as possible. And, again you also have to consider how people may be accessing your website. Of course bloated websites are no good for mobile users. At the same time, I always enjoy a good web spelunk into a deep interactive website -- granted, though, that's hard to pull off, and it may not actually "sell" anything.

There's actually a player that functions without Flash, solely with the use of jquery. I have not tried it yet myself, but it looks interesting: jplayer

Also, once HTML 5 takes over, Flash will be implemented in most browsers, I firmly believe that the newest Firefox and Safari already have such functionality, so someone please do correct me if I'm wrong.

As for Flash-only sites...they're an accessibility nightmare and more or less of a SEO nightmare. Plus, I assume that what I'd mentioned in the above paragraph is a necessity, as there still are people whom you cannot convince to install Flash.

Basically, as you have said, a XHTML/CSS site can usually be viewed on a PDA or a mobile phone too, and at least provide basic functionality. It's much easier to edit, easier to optimise for proper searches and easier to monitor. Also, if you need database interaction, there's less pain involved and there's no ActionScript either.

So, yeah, I'm totally with you on everything.

eighteyes posted:

So, in the name of indulgent self-promotion, I'm sort of glad that I pursued interactive multimedia development as a career. It offers a creative outlet and a rising line of challenge in a very relevant arena to today's music scene. When it does come time to release my music into the wild, the entire entity will knock your socks off.

Amen to that from another interactive multimedia designer.

Excellent advice and discussion. Trent nailed where music is going.

If you're a musician, there's almost too much to digest -- playing live vs. recording, social media marketing, monetizing your site, how to get heard (podcasts/mp3 blogs), copyright (creative commons!) -- so as a short-hand, I recommend:

The Indie Band Survival Guide - the complete manual for the DIY musician (book)

and its website:

IndieGuide.com

The book tackles everything musicians should do and actually how to do it (it's like 10 bucks and over 300 pages -- no fluff).

The IndieGuide.com site is all the tools, sites and resources out there for musicians (and it's free).

Both pick up where Trent's post started and are very helpful...

ageis posted:

Giving my music away really causes me a lot of stress. The stress doesn't come from a financial perspective, but instead from a resentment standpoint from my listeners. How do I explain to my supporters that the digital albums they bought a month ago, a year ago, etc., are suddenly free? I know I would feel a mix of emotions if I were in their place. Part of me would feel grateful for supporting the artist, and the other part of me would feel ripped off (why did I have to pay and they didn't?).

I've had this happen to me before, I bought music then it was free. I thought, this sucks but then realized that it was money well spent because the music is great. Hopefully fans see it that way if they do end up paying. You bought it for a reason, no sense in regreting it.

Great advice Trent. It's great to see that you have concern for aspiring musicians and bands.

posted:

* Forget thinking you are going to make any real money from record sales. Make your record cheaply (but great) and GIVE IT AWAY. As an artist you want as many people as possible to hear your work. Word of mouth is the only true marketing that matters.

...

Have a realistic idea of what you can expect to make from these and budget your recording appropriately.
The point is this: music IS free whether you want to believe that or not. Every piece of music you can think of is available free right now a click away. This is a fact - it sucks as the musician BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS (for now). So... have the public get what they want FROM YOU instead of a torrent site and garner good will in the process (plus build your database).

The Beastie Boys' site offers everything you could possibly want in the formats you would want it in - available right from them, right now. The prices they are charging are more than you should be charging - they are established and you are not. Think this through.

I can especially relate to this bit of advice. My former band made the big mistake back in '03 when we made a bunch of cds of our music for a gig we were playing in Boston. We made the packaging ourselves: bought blank cds, printed out the covers, etc. We put a lot of time, effort and money into it, so we felt that an amount of $10 or so would be good for the sale price. Well long story short, nobody bought the fucking cds (though it could've been cause we weren't terribly good). And looking back, I sure as hell wouldn't want to pay $10 to hear some local NJ band that I just heard in some bar (even if they were good). 98% of the time, the only people I've ever got to actually buy my bands' cd have been my friends. Free is the way to go, especially if nobody has heard you. Charging is ok once you've built up some reputation.