dreamerm posted:

And I don't know what "CwF + RtB" could possibly stand for.

I believe that stands for "Connect with Fans" and "Reason to Buy"

jayetheartist posted:

dreamerm posted:

And I don't know what "CwF + RtB" could possibly stand for.

I believe that stands for "Connect with Fans" and "Reason to Buy"

Illumination. Thank you muchly.

There are some great points here! I think one thing that I find personally frustrating is figuring out exactly how to stand out amidst the noise. The signal to noise ratio on the net is just terrible. Even doing something like trying to connect with genre oriented blogs can be a problem at times, because most have quite small audiences, and those with very large audiences can get swamped with requests or just not have a place for you.

Myspace music, soundclick, all those sites are just overloaded with all kinds of acts, so though they are a good place to direct people to, they are not good at all for getting exposure.

It feels like things haven't changed much, in that the best way (from my experience) to drum up support is to play out live, form some grassroots base of fans. From there you can expand better, and use social networking/new media roots to expanding and keeping your music fresh in your fans minds. But really it's not that much different from the way things used to be. And it feels like you have the same chance to be a viral hit w/some video from youtube as you did back in the day to get signed to a label. I guess the real difference is that now your fate from then on, and your ability to capitalize on fame is squarely in your own hands.

I'm not trying to say that things are the same, they very obviously are different. You have to be much more active in promotion on multiple fronts now, but you can reap the benefit of such control as well. However, it doesn't feel like it has gotten any easier to raise one's profile. Perhaps even the contrary. But at least there is always something more you can do now!

-D

idk. if anybody asked this yet. cause i haven not read every message on here. but how do you feel about indie labels. cause i see you talk about a major label. but i just ponder about your thought about indie labels.

I dont know if this has already been discussed, but I think making friends with fellow bands in your same situation would help as well. Think the early shoegaze scene, if one band gained success, they all would. This community helps a lot. HEALTH + Crystal Castles remix = great opening spot for both of them with fan Trent Reznor. Even the Elephant 6 Collective has had success this way. If you liked Neutral Milk Hotel, you'll be inclined to check out Of Montreal. That sort of thing.

Another thing I'm curious about, do critics have any say in making a band successful? I'm tempted to say Pitchfork is an indie hitmaker, and I'm fairly certain no one would know of Slint if not for Steve Albini's Melody Maker (?) review.

trent_reznor posted:

The point is this: music IS free whether you want to believe that or not. Every piece of music you can think of is available free right now a click away. This is a fact - it sucks as the musician BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS (for now).

Sorry to raise some ideological question, but does that mean that you would prefer music to be mostly unavailable beside a few selected commercial scheme? You sound like the "age of pirates" has forced you down a path you would have otherwise despiced. Pretty much the same way you were forced to deal with majors, back in the (not so distant...) days.

I take it for granted that your ideal music distribution scheme would be a LOT fairer to the fans and artists than what record companies are proposing today. But it looks like your not quite satisfied with the way it is now (we fans sure are, though).

What scheme do YOU envision or at the very least, consider ideal?

jayetheartist posted:

Personally, I think this is why a lot of artists of all types doom themselves to fail. Too many are either repulsed by the idea of having to think of their creative efforts in terms of it being a business, or they simply don't have and don't want to develop the skills to juggle both roles.

I personally don't have experience in creating a work of art and then having to say "oh time to make money on it". In software development, coding can be a *form* of art, however there's an implicit assumption 99% of the time that what you code has to be functional for end users. If it's some obtuse thing that looks pretty but does it's job poorly people won't use it. A lot of what myself and others feel is elegance in design is simply never seen. If the code is slicker than hell, it's personally satisfying and you look to your peers for approval, and if they dig it, you're happy.

I think though, if you're going to do pure art, for yourself, and you don't want to make a living at it, then go for it just realize that going in.

Independent of any pursuit, if you're going to take something and make money from it or things associated with it. At some point, you're going to have to sit and look at it as product. You have to develop those fundamental business skills to survive. The one thing that people fail to understand with tech, the web and so forth is that the fundamental principles of business are the exact same online or offline.

I think that kills a lot of people out of the gate, the idea that this is a vastly and radically new way of thinking. It's generally not. It's just different ways of doing the same things in a better/efficient/more attractive manner.

jarrettwold posted:

dreamerm posted:

I wonder if there would be a use for some sort of networking site where Artists can find the technical or business help their flakey artist asses might need.

HAHA! Something like that would be useful, an experts exchange/meetup thing for musicians to connect with expertise and vice versa.

No kidding, right?

I have never been, and never will be, a technical person. And people with creative drives are not well known for ALSO having savvy business sense.

Someone's got to mind the store. It'd be a shame for the world to miss out on a genuine talent because the damn guy can't keep his day-planner organized.

One discrepency I noticed in your comment Trent, is the recommendation to "remove all Flash", yet Flash is used on the NIN site here.

This thread is very interesting. I was just discussing how to make it as a new artist with one of my friends when I was pointed to this discussion via this article from CreateDigitalMusic.com

I've been noticing your activities more since you began releasing independantly, which was interesting to me because I was recording and producing my first album ( I finished it about a month ago ). I believe this strategy of maximally embracing and utilizing the expanding meshwork of social interaction and technology is really the future of the music industry.

It's clearly economically viable and attractive to customers. America will change a LOT if Sharing continues to be good for sales!

Thanks Trent!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2009 04:12AM by jargmarbin.

Thanks, Jaye! Will refrain from any more over-interested, overly-tangential questions for you here. (sorry, forgot myself there)

crackwhore posted:

btw, myspace isnt dying,.. its just phasing out, but it will phase back in about a years time.. not what it was in the beginning.. but its gonna turn some corners in a bit.

It's been raped in almost every territory aside from the US by Facebook. America is about the only place where it still maintains some popularity and even there it's fading, thank god too, I couldn't stand all those crazy multicoloured profiles and annoying background music.

Really thank you Trent for all these advices.

I can only see my life (in the future) in the world of music, music IS my life (by seeing many shows and yours I know that is IT!) but I don't know where to start and I don't know what I really can/want to do in it...
I'm 19 and I am lost...And further more, it's really difficult these days. I live in France and the rock/metal scene or whatever cool music scene is not as big or as cool than I think (/see) it is in America. (and surely less "accessible" )

I don't have a band, I don't have recorded tracks yet, I don't know even if I do all this, if it's going to "work" and if bands or artists (not really well-known) can live from their music. Unfortunately we have to think about money in this world but feelings and the way in which you're happy, the path you choose is all that truely counts and means something. Each thing has its advantage and disadvantage , I can only think positively for very few things and the most important is music but even that...it's not going to be all white but in black and white. So my heart is grey but beats for it.

Sometimes you can think some things are maybe possible even if you don't feel right with yourself and by seeing you at shows it's really one of my dreams which came true and I felt like...I had something in common with you (since the beginning but..) you know...the way to see life. I am not playing here the "hard-core" fan but I think I'm so in adequation with your music and way of thinking.

We have (I speak of it in general) something to escape all the time and it's hard, in these conditions, to really believe in what you do first and really share it with people but I think when the step is crossed, it frees you.
Music is all about that anyway, to let go of yourself. So I'm going to do that. I don't want success or a lot of money, I just want to do something without which I can't survive. That's the point.

You know how everything is so fragile and ephemeral.
I am going to be a bit "plaintive" but I don't want to be frustrated all my life (yes we all do but)for that in any case, which is the most important thing in my life.
How many lives "wasted" because they couldn't really do and achieve what they wanted?! We're always f*cked in some ways but I think maybe there's a (true) way to alleviate a bit that. (the burden that can be life sometimes (especially when you d'ont do what you want))
And I was thinking of all the people you can't really know whereas their experiences can be good for you, all the things we can miss in our lives etc...
Everything is so superficial anyway and unfortunately, in the world of music too! I know that I'm not really positive about all that but that is the truth. (one version of it in any case.)

Thanks for all, I like the fact that you care about fans, tell us advices, stay "close" to us and listen, read to what we say. I hope that after this tour I'll have the chance to see you quite soon again on stage(or anywhere else).
Thanks for your music, for what you stand for.
(sorry about the length of this.)

Laura



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2009 10:02AM by peop.

ancientprotector posted:

He lists a lot of ways to not make money, but even if you have a ton of fans on your email newsletter how are you going to make money if you're giving your music away for free?

Playing shows is how big acts like NIN make the dough, but small acts sometimes have to pay to play and often lose money on shows.

Printing fancy special edition CD's to sign and sell on the net to your hardcore fans for more than they would pay for a regular album by a well known artist sounds crazy to me, and even if it would work, where is a small, broke act going to get the cash to pay for a small run of nicely printed album art?

Forget cash to pay for studio time, out of all the musicians I know we barely have enough money to pay for food right now. We can record the album ourselves and because of lots of trial and error it will sound good, but we don't even have money to print an album to give away for free.

The headline should be changed to: "Trent Reznor's thoughts on what to do as a new / unknown and already rich artist."

My hypothesis is that this new wave of musicians not making money will force a generation of creative people who would have been successful artists in the past to get day jobs and work their life away, never creating their art until people realize that music has begun to suck, and want to pay for it again.

You're right, some bands do have to pay for shows and they end up losing money. This is why you shouldn't quit your day job if you are still in the process of getting signed, or making money. Until you can make a living with the art that you create you probably should still clock in for the day. It sucks wanting more out of life, wanting more from yourself, and being trapped in a mundane routine. Anyone that is somebody now had to go through the same thing, working at dead end jobs and auditioning on the side, playing their gig at night, whatever they wanted to be it came with a price and obsticles along the way. You may even have to dip into your own pocket, or set money aside little by little to buy what you need for the band. It's not an easy road to travel, but if you're following your heart isn't that what matters?

juniperus posted:

Thanks, Jaye! Will refrain from any more over-interested, overly-tangential questions for you here. (sorry, forgot myself there)

I don't mind at all! Hell, I'm the queen of tangents!

Here's another idea that might work. I know an artist that is getting his music out independently and I really like his music so I told him I would be glad to help if he needed it. I live in another state from him and he asked me to run the myspace page for my state that promotes his music. He has other sites like this and they are ran by someone that lives in that state. All we have to do is get others to listen to his music and give updates about his tour. That way you have multiple people out there helping to promote your music. Also, he was kind enough to send me a copy of his album that he signed and as a fan I thought that was pretty sweet.