Any Current Defenders of Nuclear Energy?
 
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03/17/11 11:11 PM

Kid IRA1 posted:
Aye, I'm still with nuclear power. There are obvious risks, yes, but I'll take the relatively short term and exceptionally rare damage from a nuclear disaster over the long term poisoning of fossil fuels.


Since when is radiation short term?

You ever hear of the United States Radium Corporation? They used uranium to make glow in the dark watch dials in the early 1900's. The radioactive waste was disposed of on site & still active in 2005 when the EPA cleaned it up.

 

03/17/11 10:12 PM

Old Moparz posted:
Riktor posted:
In a utopia, there is a source of energy which is clean, efficient, cheap, and completely safe from human failings. In reality, there is none. Nuclear comes the closest with two out of four.

Nuclear comes the closest? Of the four factors to compare varying energy sources to, none are even on the same page. That's like four people going to the doctor & being told that they are "sick" & need treatment. Person #1 has a head cold, person #2 has a paper cut, person #3 has a bruise, but person #4 has a head injury with their brain exposed. They can all get asprin & go home.

If nuclear, coal, natural gas, wind, solar, or any other possible type of fuel can be used, I see nuclear as the only one that can put the largest number of people at risk & make a huge area uninhabitable for several generations. It's happened already & I see it happening again within my lifetime. In 1979 Three Mile Island scared the crap out of a lot of us. In 1986 Chernobyl killed thousands & caused who knows how many others to be sick. It was estimated in the 100,000's.

Riktor posted:
I understand the opposition to nuclear. I really do. However, there are six billion people on this planet and wind farms and solar panels just ain't going to get the fucking job done. Right now, with the technology we have, nuclear is the best course of action, both financially and practically.

Ideally, we should be working on new sources of energy. Cold fusion would a great start. However, I'm not about to start tearing down cooling towers because four reactors in Japan couldn't withstand a wrath-of-God-caliber 9.0 magnitude earthquake and a 33-foot tsunami. SONGS - roughly thirty minutes from my house - is rated to withstand a 7.0 mag quake max, and it was built a decade after the reactors at Fukushima Daiichi.

Yes, nuclear power facilities should be built to withstand the greatest seismic event conceivable for their locale. If you asked anyone in Sendai if they thought it conceivable that they'd experience the third or fourth most powerful earthquake on record, I don't think you'd receive too many replies in the affirmative. The quake moved the island of Hokkaido 8 feet for fuck's sake.

I don't have an answer as to what source of power to use, but having worked in the engineering & construction field since 1986 & having witnessed incompetence, corruption, stupidity & more, I can safely say that I have no faith in people building something that can potentially put a huge part of the population at risk.

A company I was employed by in the late 80's had an inspector taking cash from the contractor for fudging his inspection reports saying that the piles driven for the bridge foundations were deep enough. They weren't & all had to be removed & replaced. It would have been interesting to see what may have happened if an overpass collapsed onto the interstate when traffic was on it.

Anything capable of generating enough electricity to power the City of New York is dangerous. Period.

Coal plants belch toxic gas into the atmosphere. Natural Gas plants explode. Dams break. All of these dangers are exacerbated by human laziness and incompetence, but they are necessary because we need power.

Really, this situation is no different than all the food-nuts running around looking down their noses at people who buy from corporate farms. There are too many people in this country - on this planet - to do things small. Power plants, like farms, need to be big and efficient in order to satisfy the needs of the public. If they aren't, then people die.

Yes, nuclear power is dangerous, and when things go wrong at nuclear power plants they go wrong in big ways. However, history has shown us things rarely go wrong. You can point at Japan all you want to illustrate your point but it doesn't change the fact these reactors were hit by the third most powerful earthquake in recorded fucking history, and then got a course of tsunami for dessert. Face it, man, these circumstances are rather extenuating.

 

03/17/11 11:53 PM

Riktor posted:

Anything capable of generating enough electricity to power the City of New York is dangerous. Period.

Coal plants belch toxic gas into the atmosphere. Natural Gas plants explode. Dams break. All of these dangers are exacerbated by human laziness and incompetence, but they are necessary because we need power.

Really, this situation is no different than all the food-nuts running around looking down their noses at people who buy from corporate farms. There are too many people in this country - on this planet - to do things small. Power plants, like farms, need to be big and efficient in order to satisfy the needs of the public. If they aren't, then people die.

Yes, nuclear power is dangerous, and when things go wrong at nuclear power plants they go wrong in big ways. However, history has shown us things rarely go wrong. You can point at Japan all you want to illustrate your point but it doesn't change the fact these reactors were hit by the third most powerful earthquake in recorded fucking history, and then got a course of tsunami for dessert. Face it, man, these circumstances are rather extenuating.

Maybe things rarely go wrong because of the short history we have of nuclear power being used. There's also the fact that the number of nuclear power plants compared to other types of plants are a smaller percentage. I know we need power, we need to have farming done on a large scale & not by the Mom & Pop farm up the road. Too many people, & too many people that need fucking plug in air fresheners.

If something can put a large number of people at risk in order to benefit from it, then it needs to be reassessed as to whether it should be used at all. I see it that it shouldn't be used, but that's my opinion & I don't have any strings to pull. I've always over designed & overbuilt things so they don't fail. It's not the cheapest way to build, but I can sleep at night. If someone doesn't like that it'll cost a bit more, than fuck 'em, I won't cut corners.

The Indian Point plant in NY is located on the intersection of two fault lines that are active. I was living in NJ at the time of a quake that happened in the mid 80's. It shook the walls & rattled the windows in the middle of the night & woke me from a dead sleep. This plant is designed for something around 6.0 or 6.1 if I recall. You won't see a tsunami on the Hudson River, but the 9.0 Japan got would destroy it. There's more fear from it's history of problems than a natural disaster. I wouldn't miss it if they close it down permanently.

 

03/17/11 11:02 PM

Old Moparz posted:
OMS posted:

But what I do know is that being NEXT to a source a radiation at its point of origin is different than being half way across the world. And I also know that a beam of radiation concentrated on the skin or area of the body has different effects than if it's dissipated throughout the room.


OMS, halfway around the world isn't the problem, it's the ones in the USA. Did you click on the link & read any of the info regarding what I posted for the two nuke plants coming to Texas? They're going to be built by the SAME company that built the Japanese plant that just self imploded.

Not only that, but there is a second company that is building it with them, & it's the same company that was caught changing seismic reports that had failed. They changed them into passing reports to save about $1 billion. They had to dismantle the Shoreham plant in NY before it was ever used because of it.

We don't have tsunamis in Texas after 8.9 earthquakes so I'm good. It was the tsunami that knocked out the back up power systems..not one but two.

It's worth noting that there are over 100 nuclear plants and I've only heard about one problem...3 mile island. I think we've learned a lot since then...not so much in energy industries.

ETA: No, I tend to shy away from sites and sources that I am not familiar with especially if they are biased. Anyone can create a website and type up and spin info. I had that problem yesterday where a site I was following on FB did a hack job on a New York Times article and made it "sobering". That is not fair and balanced journalism in my opinion and quite irresponsible.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 10:52AM by OMS.

 

03/17/11 11:08 PM

melissa posted:
What I wonder is if
"The radiation from Fukushima even in a full melt down will have ZERO effect on anyone outside of Japan, you need to understand the science more."
Why is the heath department here in slo now giving out free potassium iodine?
if no risk why give out drug that could have some severe side effects?
I know that it's intended to help prevent against thyroid gland cancer....
if the risk is high enough to need protection against thyroid gland cancer, then to me it seems like you would still be at risk for other types of cancer.
I don't have a PHD but it seems like common sense...
I'm not trying to start a scare.
I'm just trying to gather information and i don't trust the media or government to keep me informed.
i don't want me or any of my loved ones to end up getting cancer because we didn't leave, because we were misinformed.

Where is here? US?

The KI is used to keep the thyroid from absorbing the radiation...iodine is essential for thyroid heath that is why it's added to table salt. This can't be done for other organs/cancers. There is no need for any to be given out to the US as there is no risk of the people in the US to be exposed to CANCER CAUSING LEVELS OF RADIATION.

No, this is not PhD stuff...just common sense.

ETA: Reports of iodine sickness from those already self-medicating



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 12:39PM by OMS.

 

03/17/11 11:20 PM

Riktor posted:
Coal plants belch toxic gas into the atmosphere. Natural Gas plants explode. Dams break. All of these dangers are exacerbated by human laziness and incompetence, but they are necessary because we need power.


Not to mention the poisons that are released into the air and soil from fracking. I live right under the Barnett Shale. All the drilling is causing illnesses all over the place. They are putting gas wells next to homes, parks, schools and hospitals. I'm talking right across the street...I shit you not. People are having to choose from walking away from their homes/filing bancrupcy or watching their kid's bleed profusely out their noses. Or better yet, they can catch their well water on fire and have a slew of cancer causing chemicals like benzene in their blood and urine.


How long have we been drilling for natural gas?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2011 11:29PM by OMS.

 

03/17/11 11:30 PM

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2011 11:34PM by OMS.

 

03/18/11 5:07 AM

Riktor posted:
Old Moparz posted:
Riktor posted:
In a utopia, there is a source of energy which is clean, efficient, cheap, and completely safe from human failings. In reality, there is none. Nuclear comes the closest with two out of four.

Nuclear comes the closest? Of the four factors to compare varying energy sources to, none are even on the same page. That's like four people going to the doctor & being told that they are "sick" & need treatment. Person #1 has a head cold, person #2 has a paper cut, person #3 has a bruise, but person #4 has a head injury with their brain exposed. They can all get asprin & go home.

If nuclear, coal, natural gas, wind, solar, or any other possible type of fuel can be used, I see nuclear as the only one that can put the largest number of people at risk & make a huge area uninhabitable for several generations. It's happened already & I see it happening again within my lifetime. In 1979 Three Mile Island scared the crap out of a lot of us. In 1986 Chernobyl killed thousands & caused who knows how many others to be sick. It was estimated in the 100,000's.

Riktor posted:
I understand the opposition to nuclear. I really do. However, there are six billion people on this planet and wind farms and solar panels just ain't going to get the fucking job done. Right now, with the technology we have, nuclear is the best course of action, both financially and practically.

Ideally, we should be working on new sources of energy. Cold fusion would a great start. However, I'm not about to start tearing down cooling towers because four reactors in Japan couldn't withstand a wrath-of-God-caliber 9.0 magnitude earthquake and a 33-foot tsunami. SONGS - roughly thirty minutes from my house - is rated to withstand a 7.0 mag quake max, and it was built a decade after the reactors at Fukushima Daiichi.

Yes, nuclear power facilities should be built to withstand the greatest seismic event conceivable for their locale. If you asked anyone in Sendai if they thought it conceivable that they'd experience the third or fourth most powerful earthquake on record, I don't think you'd receive too many replies in the affirmative. The quake moved the island of Hokkaido 8 feet for fuck's sake.

I don't have an answer as to what source of power to use, but having worked in the engineering & construction field since 1986 & having witnessed incompetence, corruption, stupidity & more, I can safely say that I have no faith in people building something that can potentially put a huge part of the population at risk.

A company I was employed by in the late 80's had an inspector taking cash from the contractor for fudging his inspection reports saying that the piles driven for the bridge foundations were deep enough. They weren't & all had to be removed & replaced. It would have been interesting to see what may have happened if an overpass collapsed onto the interstate when traffic was on it.

Anything capable of generating enough electricity to power the City of New York is dangerous. Period.

Coal plants belch toxic gas into the atmosphere. Natural Gas plants explode. Dams break. All of these dangers are exacerbated by human laziness and incompetence, but they are necessary because we need power.

Really, this situation is no different than all the food-nuts running around looking down their noses at people who buy from corporate farms. There are too many people in this country - on this planet - to do things small. Power plants, like farms, need to be big and efficient in order to satisfy the needs of the public. If they aren't, then people die.

Yes, nuclear power is dangerous, and when things go wrong at nuclear power plants they go wrong in big ways. However, history has shown us things rarely go wrong. You can point at Japan all you want to illustrate your point but it doesn't change the fact these reactors were hit by the third most powerful earthquake in recorded fucking history, and then got a course of tsunami for dessert. Face it, man, these circumstances are rather extenuating.

Coal plants, natural gas plants, dams. If any of these sources of energy break or get damaged, does the fallout from them hang around in the atmosphere, soil, oceans, for years and still cause health problems for future generations?

"history has shown us things rarely go wrong" with nuclear power plants. Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima, all these things have happened in the last 35 years. That is not rare, that is disastrous.

 

03/18/11 5:46 AM

I think what Riktor is getting at is that there are over 400 reactors worldwide. Most countries have been operating them since the 1950's.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Have a look at where they are and how many there are then square that with the actual catastrophic events - Chernobyl - being the only one with seriously lasting consequences. On top of that, consider the amount of Nuclear WEAPONS & reactors powering vessels floating about in the sea at any given time?

Yes, it is bad when things go wrong, but ultimately, square what actually has gone wrong with the planets energy needs (which no other sorce of energy can provide) and also the ecological and environmental damage caused by hundreds of years of gathering Oil, Coal, Gas etc? Further to that all the things that OMS has described. They are 'fracking' foor Gas in Morcambe bay, which a lot of people oppose for the same reasons. I think it is easy to point the finger at Nuclear Power, but when you actually consider how many REACTORS are out there, it is safe. Except when they get hit by the biggest Earthquake/Tsunami since 859AD, obviously, then they might leak.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 06:29AM by YKWYA.

 

03/18/11 6:51 AM

YKWYA posted:
I think what Riktor is getting at is that there are over 400 reactors worldwide.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Have a look at where they are and how many there are then square that with the actual catastrophic events - Chernobyl - being the only one with seriously lasting consequences. On top of that, consider the amount of Nuclear WEAPONS & reactors powering vessels floating about in the sea at any given time?

Yes, it is bad when things go wrong, but ultimately, square what actually has gone wrong with the planets energy needs (which no other sorce of energy can provide) and also the ecological and environmental damage caused by hundreds of years of gathering Oil, Coal, Gas etc? I think it is easy to point the finger at Nuclear Power, but when you actually consider how many REACTORS are out there, it is safe. Except when they get hit by the biggest Earthquake/Tsunami since 859AD, obviously, then they might leak.

I think the point that Bob is making, is that regardless of how many reactors there are in the world and their safety track record, the process by which they operate is not foolproof and fail-safe, and when something does go drastically wrong with this type of energy, it's catastrophic. Other sources of energy don't come close to the type of destruction caused by nuclear, when they have issues. Because of that, the risk outweighs the benefit.

Yes, it's true, too, that we've caused damage by stripping the Earth of other energy resources, but

A. It's still a hell of a lot safer than playing Russian Roulette with splitting atoms, and

B. Perhaps it's time to reevaluate the energy needs of the world and start cutting back. Do we really need all the fancy "extras" and the "must haves" that require power from the plug in air fresheners that Bob mentioned right up to sending probes into space to search for life on other planets when we have enough fucking problems down here on Earth, that we need to contend with, first?

The 1980's were called the "Age of Excess", but I think that pales in comparison to today, which could be called the "Age of Energy Excess". If everyone on the planet made a diligent effort on cutting back on their power consumption, then I'll bet you any money that we could make do with what we've got. Shut off the light when you're not in the room, unplug things when not in use that suck up power to stay in "standby" mode, even business that aren't 24-hour operations should kill the switch--do they really need to leave a few lights on in the store as well as their illuminated store sign?

All those little things add up, and when you can see the glow of a city in a satellite photo from outer space, then that should make you question, right there, "Is that really necessary?"

 

03/18/11 8:06 AM

LisaM. posted:
YKWYA posted:
I think what Riktor is getting at is that there are over 400 reactors worldwide.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Have a look at where they are and how many there are then square that with the actual catastrophic events - Chernobyl - being the only one with seriously lasting consequences. On top of that, consider the amount of Nuclear WEAPONS & reactors powering vessels floating about in the sea at any given time?

Yes, it is bad when things go wrong, but ultimately, square what actually has gone wrong with the planets energy needs (which no other sorce of energy can provide) and also the ecological and environmental damage caused by hundreds of years of gathering Oil, Coal, Gas etc? I think it is easy to point the finger at Nuclear Power, but when you actually consider how many REACTORS are out there, it is safe. Except when they get hit by the biggest Earthquake/Tsunami since 859AD, obviously, then they might leak.

I think the point that Bob is making, is that regardless of how many reactors there are in the world and their safety track record, the process by which they operate is not foolproof and fail-safe, and when something does go drastically wrong with this type of energy, it's catastrophic.

Well, you say that, but when has it been truly 'catastrophic'? Once? What about Deepwater Horizon? And, numerous other spills over the decades that have taken decades to truly clean up?

[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]

posted:
Other sources of energy don't come close to the type of destruction caused by nuclear, when they have issues. Because of that, the risk outweighs the benefit.

In one incident maybe, but still just general practices of every other resource/energy production have and continue to damage the environment. Dont get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, but the argument is kind of just 'welcome to planet earth'. We hedge our bets on everything, and just because there may be catastrophic events doesnt mean we cant manage the technology. We are basically creating a black hole at CERN right now.

posted:

Yes, it's true, too, that we've caused damage by stripping the Earth of other energy resources, but

A. It's still a hell of a lot safer than playing Russian Roulette with splitting atoms, and


Again, I disagree - and again we play russian roulette with a lot of things. And, hopefully, maybe this event will have some good in that it will further our understanding of managing and stopping a catastrophic (Chernobyl) meltdown. I mean, these guys are doing a fucking amazing job to keep it under control. And the US and other countries are now undertaking reviews of Nuclear safety. And just to clarify, this thing was hiut with the biggest earthquake Japan has seen since 859AD, it didnt go wrong because of some defect in the technology.

posted:
B. Perhaps it's time to reevaluate the energy needs of the world and start cutting back. Do we really need all the fancy "extras" and the "must haves" that require power from the plug in air fresheners that Bob mentioned right up to sending probes into space to search for life on other planets when we have enough fucking problems down here on Earth, that we need to contend with, first?

I do agree with that. However, I have no faith in our economies changing. Which is what fundamentally underpins all of this. Our economic model needs to change from 'growth, growth, growth'. And we are beyond the point of going back to the days before mass cheap Oil. Our population is so out of kilter with supply - if there was a fuel strike in the Uk the supermarket shelves will be empty in about 3 days. And all that food is produced and packaged utilising petrochemicals.

posted:

The 1980's were called the "Age of Excess", but I think that pales in comparison to today, which could be called the "Age of Energy Excess". If everyone on the planet made a diligent effort on cutting back on their power consumption, then I'll bet you any money that we could make do with what we've got. Shut off the light when you're not in the room, unplug things when not in use that suck up power to stay in "standby" mode, even business that aren't 24-hour operations should kill the switch--do they really need to leave a few lights on in the store as well as their illuminated store sign?

I agree with most of that - however, I really dont think that we can make a difference. All the while you are worrying about that, WalMart is operating a store down the road which exemplifies energy excess - from refrigeration, packaging, lighting, air conditioning. Change has to come from the top on this one, and it isnt going to. Not in our economies. Add to that second tier economies from the East, South America ets growing and now wanting we we have - its a lot of resources to pump into all those iPads.

posted:

All those little things add up, and when you can see the glow of a city in a satellite photo from outer space, then that should make you question, right there, "Is that really necessary?"

I agree, but it isnt going to change. God, I sound like such a pessimist dont I?

grinning smiley



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 08:19AM by YKWYA.

 

03/18/11 9:21 AM

Old Moparz posted:
Apolutrosis posted:
Automobiles kill more people than nuclear energy has, or will. Should we ban them as well?

As Riktor says, you have to work with what you've got, and take the bad with the good. The bad is that sources of high energy will always be dangerous.


I don't think that comparing automobile accidents to a nuclear disaster is valid. Even if the accident was the largest accident in history, let's say a 2837 car pile up on the interstate during bad fog happened, the cars can be towed, fixed, & the highway can still be used when the mess is cleaned up. A nuclear power plant accident, whether it's human error, mother nature, or any other reason, it's forever.

Even if there were 200,000 witnesses standing on the side of the road or on the overpass looking down through fog cutting goggles, none of them would be at the same risk of getting a sickness or disease from it like they will from radiation poisoning. I'll be happy to work with whatever else there is, even pay more to use it & not have to worry about dying or losing my home because it's glowing.


I understand your valid concerns, and am certainly not trying to trivialize the horrible accident. I'm just trying to offer a little perspective. There are about 45K deaths every year in the US, which is almost a million and a half deaths since this particular reactor has been operational. I understand the long term concerns, but I think that we have to work with what we've got, and there will always be associated dangers.

 

03/18/11 9:00 AM

JamesyEsquire posted:
The fact is, nuclear power post Chernobyl is still statistically the safest we have, more people have died as a result of wind power as they have nuclear. Modern nuclear power plants are extremely safe, 10 x more than the Fukushima plant and even that has survived relatively well given what was thrown at it.

People are afraid of nuclear power because they do not understand it, the events of Chernobly could never happen in a modern plant, even a full meltdown will only have relatively local consequences.

The thing is not so much how many have died directly from it (I assume you are excluding the 4,000 eventual cancerous deaths from radiation clouds released at Chernobyl), it's that the half-life of the radioactive materials is like 500 years. That means it will expose people to radiation for 500 years and then it will lose half of that radiation. So when an event like that happens, there goes that area for like 10 generations. Russia has to pay hunters to shoot the bears around there who eat berries and roots high in radioactivity, and then NOT eat them - just to keep it from spreading when they migrate.
How many areas do we want like that on our one Earth? Let me say that again: Our ONE EARTH.

I agree the design and capabilities of the newer reactors and safety protocols are much better. I am happier we have a much better system and the trial and error part is mostly over. But, do I believe in humankind's ego enough to trust that we've got it, especially against Nature itself 24/7? No, those are odds I am not willing to take. Another way to say this is Jurassic Park's "Life will find a way" ominous refrain. Or if you need a real example, there is this very event which progressed from 'not a problem' to 'releasing radioactive steam' to a 'Chernobyl-like disaster' (in this morning's news).
Politics and PR are terrible buffers for the reality of the consequences here.


My heart goes out to the people who cannot leave their houses (if they have one left) in Japan. They obviously are feeling the effects of this "not a big deal" ongoing meltdown. I don't think it's the same effect caliber if some idiot jumps off a wind turbine.





PS LisaM: I think the Seabrook plant is operational...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 09:23AM by votiVe.

 

03/18/11 9:13 AM

Old Moparz posted:
Kid IRA1 posted:
Aye, I'm still with nuclear power. There are obvious risks, yes, but I'll take the relatively short term and exceptionally rare damage from a nuclear disaster over the long term poisoning of fossil fuels.


Since when is radiation short term?

You ever hear of the United States Radium Corporation? They used uranium to make glow in the dark watch dials in the early 1900's. The radioactive waste was disposed of on site & still active in 2005 when the EPA cleaned it up.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not only habitable but acceptable for tourism. So is New Mexico.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 09:16AM by OMS.

 

03/18/11 9:29 AM

[quote OMS]It's worth noting that there are over 100 nuclear plants and I've only heard about one problem...3 mile island. I think we've learned a lot since then...not so much in energy industries.[/quote]

Wikipedia

'There have been at least six meltdowns in the history of the United States. All are widely called "partial meltdowns."

The partial meltdown at the Fermi 1 experimental fast breeder reactor required the reactor to be repaired, though it never achieved full operation afterward.

The Three Mile Island accident, referred to in the press as a "partial core melt,"[4] led to the permanent shutdown of that reactor.

The Sodium Reactor Experiment in Santa Susana Field Laboratory was an experimental nuclear reactor which operated from 1957 to 1964 and was the first commercial power plant in the world to experience a core meltdown in July 1959.

Stationary Low-Power Reactor Number One (SL-1) was a United States Army experimental nuclear power reactor which underwent a criticality excursion, a steam explosion, and a meltdown on January 3, 1961, killing three operators.

BORAX-I was a test reactor designed to explore criticality excursions. In the final destructive test of the reactor in 1954, a miscalculation led to the meltdown of a significant portion of the core and the release of nuclear fuel and fission products into the environment.'


I'm not trying to start a tussle, just pointing out this history.



[quote OMS]
Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not only habitable but acceptable for tourism. So is New Mexico.[/quote]

The page where this is at Answers.com

How come Hiroshima and Nagasaki are nowhere as radioactive as Chernobyl?I recently saw a documentary on Chernobyl and Prepyat in the Ukraine Republic and it was very sad to see how all the nearby land and wildlife was contaminated.
My question is why is this so, yet people can these days walk around and indeed live in Hiroshima and Nagisaki in Japan, and not be really worried about neuclear radioactivity.

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Two reasons:

a) The bombs that went off over Hiroshima and Nagasaki were air-bursts, so the neutron flux from the explosion created what is called induced radioactivity -- neutrons captured by the elements in the soil change their isotopes from stable to radioactive ones. Fortunately, induced radioactivity generally has a very short half-life (typically a matter of days), so the radioactivity decayed rapidly back to background levels. The long half-life isotopes were in the bomb itself, and those dissipated in the cloud material which drifted out to sea. And the bombs were dropped 65 years ago.

b) At Chernobyl, 400 times the amount of radioactive material of the Hiroshima bomb was released -- one figure I saw indicated six TONS of radioactive material! The fire caused a plume of smoke containing volatilized long-lived radioactive isotopes, which settled to the ground along the trail of the smoke plume. So the ground in the area was contaminated with isotopes of plutonium-239 (the fuel), iodine-131, and strontium-90. Plutonium-239 has a half-life of more than 24,000 years, iodine-131 has a half-life of 8 days, and strontium-90 has a half-life of 29 years. In addition, the accident happened in 1986, so there have only been 24 years for radiation to decay.
Source(s):
40 years in chemistry, to include radiation chemistry.
28 years as an Army Chemical Officer/Radiation Protection Officer




Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 09:45AM by votiVe.

 

03/18/11 10:13 AM

Thanks Votive...I hand not heard about the others since they didn't happen during my lifetime...and even today, they haven't been mentioned in the news I've viewed on the latest problems w/Japan. I watch a variety of national news channels except for Fox. I also scour the internet daily for all things news, reading from many sites. Strange that they are only mentioning Three Mile Island.

On the second item, I do understand that there are different types of radiation and different radioactive elements/isotopes and they are all different in their half-life, properties, etc. The example that Moparz gave was radium...still very different...in which he implied that it has always remained unsafe and never goes away. I was simply giving an example where radiation can go from unsafe to safe...or "short term"...not that a reactor meltdown, and the surrounding area, would ever be safe. Still, I enjoyed reading explanation you provided.

It is very interesting how elements and their isotopes vary...and important to remember since the terms "radiation" and "radioactivity" have such negative meanings to most. What most people don't realize is they have at least one cancerous cell in their body at all times...at least one cell...regardless of environmental factors such as radiation exposure. Thankfully, MOST people's immune system kills those cells and they remain healthy. Also, it depends what cells are cancerous...whether it is a cell that can divide or not. That is why radiation therapy is used...even if it disrupts the DNA of a healthy cell/tissue, those cells will more than likely never replicate. Radiation therapy can't be used on ALL cancers for obvious reasons. But I digress...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 10:32AM by OMS.

 

03/18/11 10:40 AM

OMS posted:
Old Moparz posted:
Kid IRA1 posted:
Aye, I'm still with nuclear power. There are obvious risks, yes, but I'll take the relatively short term and exceptionally rare damage from a nuclear disaster over the long term poisoning of fossil fuels.


Since when is radiation short term?

You ever hear of the United States Radium Corporation? They used uranium to make glow in the dark watch dials in the early 1900's. The radioactive waste was disposed of on site & still active in 2005 when the EPA cleaned it up.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not only habitable but acceptable for tourism. So is New Mexico.

But Chernobyl certainly isnt. I appreciate the backup, but I think Old Moparz meant failing reactors, not nuclear bombs. Anyways, when I said relative and with a small impact, I was writing in relation to global warming.

 

03/18/11 10:44 AM

votiVe posted:


PS LisaM: I think the Seabrook plant is operational...



Yes, I see that: [www.fpl.com]

I remember them shutting it down in the past, but they must've started it back up at some point. But. . . I'm still glad it's not right in my backyard. . . .

 

03/18/11 10:55 AM

Kid IRA1 posted:
OMS posted:
Old Moparz posted:
Kid IRA1 posted:
Aye, I'm still with nuclear power. There are obvious risks, yes, but I'll take the relatively short term and exceptionally rare damage from a nuclear disaster over the long term poisoning of fossil fuels.


Since when is radiation short term?

You ever hear of the United States Radium Corporation? They used uranium to make glow in the dark watch dials in the early 1900's. The radioactive waste was disposed of on site & still active in 2005 when the EPA cleaned it up.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not only habitable but acceptable for tourism. So is New Mexico.

But Chernobyl certainly isnt. I appreciate the backup, but I think Old Moparz meant failing reactors, not nuclear bombs. Anyways, when I said relative and with a small impact, I was writing in relation to global warming.

And all he mentioned was radium that was used in watch parts (in the above quote)...hardly a nuclear reactor or nuclear bomb either. At least I gave an example that is more on the level of a nuclear catastrophe that kill/sickened many...or contaminated the air/earth in large scale.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 11:04AM by OMS.

 

03/18/11 12:09 PM

Kid IRA1 posted:
OMS posted:
Old Moparz posted:
Kid IRA1 posted:
Aye, I'm still with nuclear power. There are obvious risks, yes, but I'll take the relatively short term and exceptionally rare damage from a nuclear disaster over the long term poisoning of fossil fuels.


Since when is radiation short term?

You ever hear of the United States Radium Corporation? They used uranium to make glow in the dark watch dials in the early 1900's. The radioactive waste was disposed of on site & still active in 2005 when the EPA cleaned it up.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not only habitable but acceptable for tourism. So is New Mexico.

But Chernobyl certainly isnt. I appreciate the backup, but I think Old Moparz meant failing reactors, not nuclear bombs. Anyways, when I said relative and with a small impact, I was writing in relation to global warming.

Actually, you can take a trip to Chernobyl now. Don't know that it's necessarily a smart idea given the fragility of the containment structure around the reactor, but you can book a tour to take you there.

 

03/18/11 12:18 PM

I just came across this. As someone who has worked on a project design control for a new medical device product and production line from the ground up, that included performing risk management analysis, process auditing and 510K approval by the FDA AND ensuring compliance on existing product manufacturing, I can relate to what this article is explaining.



Why 'Plan B' often works out badly


Engineers used to talk about guarding against the “single point of failure” when designing critical systems like aircraft control systems or nuclear power plants. But rarely does one mistake or event cause a catastrophe. As we’ve seen in Japan, disaster is usually a function of multiple mistakes and a string of bad luck, often called an “event cascade” or “propagating failures.”

In Japan’s case, early reports indicate an earthquake knocked out power to the nuclear plant’s cooling system, then the tsunami knocked out the backup generators. The third tier of protection – backup batteries -- were only designed to provide a few hours coverage – enough to get the generators repaired. But the backup backup plan didn’t account for the time it would take to complete generator repairs under duress, such as when Japan’s infrastructure had been decimated by an earthquake.

Separately, the failure of backup systems isn’t enough to create a disaster; but taken together, the results can be catastrophic.

“If you add up probabilities independently, everything looks good. But in this case, there is a high degree of correlation and you can't treat these as independent variables,” said Bruce Schneier, a risk management expert.


Defending against and preparing for such event cascades is a problem that vexes all kinds of systems designers, from airplane engineers to anti-terrorism planners. There’s a simple reason, according to Peter Neumann, principal scientist at the Computer Science Lab at SRI International, a not-for-profit research institute. Emergency drills and stress tests aside, Neumann said, there is no good way to simulate a real emergency and its unpredictable consequences. Making matters worse is the ever-increasing interconnectedness of systems, which leads to cascading failures, and the fact that preventative maintenance is a dying art.

“People just wait to fix things when they are broken,” he said.

History is replete with stories of failed backups -- in fact, it's fair to say nearly all modern disasters involve a Plan B gone bad. Neumann keeps a running list of such events, which includes a long series of power outages (and backup power failures) that shut down airports, including Reagan National in Washington D.C.; failed upgrades that felled transit systems like San Francisco's Bay Area Rapid Transit; and backup mismanagement that delayed the first Space Shuttle launch.

There's a simple reason backups work well in theory but often fail when they encounter real-life trouble, Neumann said.

"It's impossible to simulate all the real things that can go wrong. You just can't do it," he said. "The idea that you can test for unforeseen circumstances is ridiculous. When unforeseen circumstances arise, you realize your test cases are incomplete. In general you can't test for worst case emergencies. You can't anticipate everything."

Emergency tests -- like fire drills -- can easily take on an air of artificiality. Think about the last time you lined up to exit a school or office building during a faux fire. Did that really make you better equipped to escape during a real fire?

Those who run critical systems have a hard time simulating the pressures and emotional reactions that come with real crisis. Even if they do, sometimes it's functionally not possible to fully simulate a disaster in progress, says M. E. Kabay, an expert at risk management who teaches at Norwich University.

"It is exceedingly difficult to test a production system unless you have a completely parallel system, and often, you can’t. Then, what are we supposed to do, shut off the cooling system at a nuclear power plant to run a test? It's not easy," he said. "Very few people will agree to have their electricity turned off so we can test a response to a breach of coolant. And provoking a critical system that is unstable (like a nuclear plant) is itself unconscionable."

Why they don't work
Plan Bs can fail dozens of ways, but they often fall into three groups:

*Synchronization failure. It's harder than it looks to keep the backup system in the exact same state as the production system. Think about all the software patches that are installed on your computer; is the software on backup computer completely identical?

*Bad fallback plans. Many failures occur when a system is being upgraded. Risk managers stress the need to be ready to fall back to the system when it worked before, but sometimes, that's not possible. The New York City public library once lost thousands of records this way, as did the Dutch criminal system, Neumann said. In the latter case, criminals actually went free.

*Not in working condition. Backup power generators can sit idle for years. They might be full of fuel, but are they full of lubricant? Are gaskets dry and prone to cracking? Can they really handle a long-term full power load? Hospitals struggle to keep backup generators in working order. More than 100 hospital deaths during Hurricane Katrina have been blamed on the failure of backup power generators; many hospitals simply hadn't planned for 15 feet of water. Even when generators worked, they couldn't power air conditioners to fight off triple-digit temperatures.

It's human nature to let backup systems that are rarely needed degrade over time. In fact, it's built into our DNA, says Kabay.

"From a biological and evolutionary standpoint, if you spend time looking at things that are not a threat you decrease your evolutionary fitness," he said. "A baboon looking around for nonexistent lions is not going to succeed from an evolutionary standpoint. ... Ignoring things is an inevitable response to habitual success."

At the same time, building redundancy into systems makes them far more complex, adding to maintenance headaches.

"Designing fault tolerant mechanics can more than double the complexity of a system," Neumann said, "and that can make the likelihood of failure much greater." It also adds to the likelihood that a backup system will be neglected by busy engineers.

Bureaucracy can also keep engineers from fully testing backup systems, or fully synching them up with online systems. At one point, NASA's rigid code verification process for the space shuttle meant each programmer could generate only three to five lines of code per day, Neumann said. Such processes make it tempting to skip effort to mirror minor changes between online and backup systems

"That's an example of where you still need to go back through the process," Neumann said. “But often don’t.”

Then there's the key problem of interconnectedness, which makes circumstances ripe for an event cascade. The more systems are integrated, the more a problem in one can spread to another. The classic example is the Morris worm, which took down much of the Internet in 1988, but dozens of bugs and attacks have since spread to millions of computers because of the Web interconnectedness. An even better example -- the cascading failure of the U.S. power grid in the Northeast coast during 2003.

There's still a lot of conjecture around the reasons for the failure of the Fukushima cooling system, but Neumann has sympathy for planners who faced tough decisions when they designed it. While an earthquake followed by a tsunami was a predictable one-two punch, it's doubtful engineers tested their design against a magnitude 9.0 earthquake and the subsequent wall of water it would generate.

"You come up with a worst case scenario and you design the system around that flood," he said. "They clearly hadn't designed for a flood this size."

Safety costs money; tradeoffs everywhere
One ugly reality of safe system design -- even for life-critical systems like mass transit or nuclear power plants -- is cost. It's easy to say Japanese designers should have spent more on cooling system backups, Kabay said, but most people misunderstand the tricky cost-benefit analysis routinely conducted at such plants. Safety engineers don't have infinite budgets. Every day, they make educated guesses -- in other words, they place bets.

"Many people don't realize that risk management is a balancing act. Somebody had to make a decision at some point about where the cutoff would be. Some group had to decide as best they could that the probability of events beyond a certain threshold had dropped below the level that they could cope with," he said.

Hypothetically speaking, he said, an engineer could raise generators off the floor 10 feet to protect against a flood likely to occur every 50 years, or they could raise them 25 feet to protect against a flood that might occur every 100 years. If a plant has an expected life of 50 years, engineers would probably choose the lower structure and the cost savings. "The cost-benefit analysis said we could make it more resistant to a once in a century event, but that will triple the cost, they’d settle on protecting from a 1 in 50 year event and saving the money."

One terrible irony of risk management is the better you do, the more your techniques will come under attack, Kabay said. The longer we go without a dangerous nuclear event, the more safety engineers are accused of overspending.

"The better precautionary measures do, the less effective they appear,” Kabay said. “...There is an exceptional psychological tendency to narrow your functional view and forget the earlier conditions we have improved.” That's why funding for preventative measures against major disasters tend to vacillate over a half-generation. The recent memory of a bridge collapse leads to tougher civil engineering laws; a distant memory leads to accusations of overkill and overbuilding. "Many people start thinking ‘we're wasting money here, we've been wasting all this money on backup systems we never need.’"

And then there's the fundamental problem of what Kabay calls a "disjunction" between the people who decide how much money should be spent on safety measures, and the people who suffer the consequences of those choices. Often, a detached group of distant stockholders wants to save money, but it's the neighbors who will suffer if there's a radioactivity leak.

"Many times the managers who make the decisions know they won't be around when there's consequences," he said. The only way to fix the disjunction problem is with regulations and laws designed to fix consequences back on the decision-makers -- through fines, criminal liability -- so they share in the risk.

In a world of just-in-time manufacturing and corporate penny-pinching, this is easier said than done, warned Neumann. It's hard to get companies to spend money on Plan B when they are cutting things so close on plan A.

"Preventive maintenance is fundamental, but it is a dying art," he said. Airlines often don't do preventive maintenance until flight checks spot problems, he said. And power companies rarely reserve spare generation power for critical incidents.

"Most companies just ignore things until they get burned."

 

03/18/11 12:19 PM

votiVe posted:
My heart goes out to the people who cannot leave their houses (if they have one left) in Japan. They obviously are feeling the effects of this "not a big deal" ongoing meltdown.

Where did you see that said?

OMS posted:
"Most companies just ignore things until they get burned."

Just keep thinking Deepwater Horizons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 12:31PM by YKWYA.

 

03/18/11 12:40 PM

YKWYA posted:
OMS posted:
"Most companies just ignore things until they get burned."

Just keep thinking Deepwater Horizons.

Exactly.

 

03/18/11 1:01 PM

Just to make an addition to the topic of long term effects of radiation, this is a very interesting article about Marie and Pierre Curie, though a bit long, so I only put an excerpt from it below.

In case you don't know who the Curie's are, they were the husband and wife scientist team that discovered radium and other radioactive elements in the late 1800's. Marie died from aplastic anemia brought on by radiation exposure.

It states in the article that the half-life of radium is 1620 years, and "half-life" is defined as the amount of time it takes for a drug, chemical or radioactive isotope to reduce or decay to 1/2 it's original amount, effectiveness or concentration. Given the fact that other radioactive elements like Plutonium 244 has a half life of 80.8 million years, and Uranium 258 having a half life of 4.47 billion years, I think I'll pass on visiting Chernobyl, Nagasaki and Hiroshima on my next vacation. I don't put too much faith in how "safe" those places are.

[nobelprize.org]


Serious Health Problems
A week earlier Marie and Pierre had been invited to the Royal Institution in London where Pierre gave a lecture. Before the crowded auditorium he showed how radium rapidly affected photographic plates wrapped in paper, how the substance gave off heat; in the semi-darkness he demonstrated the spectacular light effect. He described the medical tests he had tried out on himself. He had wrapped a sample of radium salts in a thin rubber covering and bound it to his arm for ten hours, then had studied the wound, which resembled a burn, day by day. After 52 days a permanent grey scar remained. In that connection Pierre mentioned the possibility of radium being able to be used in the treatment of cancer. But Pierre's scarred hands shook so that once he happened to spill a little of the costly preparation. Fifty years afterwards the presence of radioactivity was discovered on the premises and certain surfaces had to be cleaned.

In actual fact Pierre was ill. His legs shook so that at times he found it hard to stand upright. He was in much pain. He consulted a doctor who diagnosed neurasthenia and prescribed strychnine. And the skin on Marie's fingers was cracked and scarred. Both of them constantly suffered from fatigue. They evidently had no idea that radiation could have a detrimental effect on their general state of health. Pierre, who liked to say that radium had a million times stronger radioactivity than uranium, often carried a sample in his waistcoat pocket to show his friends. Marie liked to have a little radium salt by her bed that shone in the darkness. The papers they left behind them give off pronounced radioactivity. If today at the Bibliothèque Nationale you want to consult the three black notebooks in which their work from December 1897 and the three following years is recorded, you have to sign a certificate that you do so at your own risk. People will have to do this for a long time to come. In fact it takes 1,620 years before the activity of radium is reduced to a half.

Rutherford was just as unsuspecting in regard to the hazards as were the Curies. When it turned out that one of his colleagues who had worked with radioactive substances for several months was able to discharge an electroscope by exhaling, Rutherford expressed his delight. This confirmed his theory of the existence of airborne emanations
.

 

03/18/11 2:03 PM

And here is the wiki on the "Radium girls" who worked in the factory that painted the radium on watch components.

I briefly worked at a medical device facility (different from the one I mentioned above) that made the radioactive seeds for prostate cancer brachytherapy treatment. During my in-service on radioactivity and PPE (personal protection equipment) they did a demonstration with different items and their level of radioactivity. I remember them using a watch with radium paint. Rather interesting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 02:15PM by OMS.

 

03/18/11 3:03 PM

YKWYA posted:
votiVe posted:
My heart goes out to the people who cannot leave their houses (if they have one left) in Japan. They obviously are feeling the effects of this "not a big deal" ongoing meltdown.

Where did you see that said?

I was quoting myself from earlier in that post! What I mean is that we have the Japanese govt not wanting to cause a panic and being slow and minimal with announcements and safety zones, we have nuclear "expert" Jay Lehr talking everywhere he can about how safe Nuclear power is -- Jay Lehr on bloomberg , Jay again, this time on Squakbox and then University of New Mexico radiologist Dr. Fred Mettler in a CBS article saying "Cesium particles are relatively large and heavy, so they would not likely travel far in a plume. Most would drop near the reactor site, and if winds carry it east into the Pacific Ocean, it would be "no big deal" to human health, he said." I see that particular phrase he meant the travelling gas, not a meltdown specifically. My point is just that it's all downplayed as this disaster unfolds until suddenly-- today-- they are considering dumping sand and concrete on it just like Chernobyl!
OMS posted:
"Most companies just ignore things until they get burned."

Just keep thinking Deepwater Horizons.

I actually agree that other fossil fuel companies don't get a get out jail free card on this, they are not any safer or noble. Exxon Valdez, BP Oil Spill, Hydrofracking the Marsellus Shale, but I'm not sold on Nuclear Power. Right now we store all the waste on sites in the US. They don't re-use like the Japanese do (MOX) for fear of it falling into terrorist hands. I like Yucca mountain, it's too volatile to shoot into the sun, and I'm out of ideas.

And to be fair OMS 3 Mile Island is the most well known US meltdown, and I've always wondered why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were safe today. Now I know, so thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 03:04PM by votiVe.

 

03/18/11 4:28 PM

No worries - Im not having a go at you, I just didnt understand what it was reffering to. Because, I dont think anyone is saying this isnt a big deal - even if they still dont think Nuclear should be stopped - and if the Japanese Government outwardly seem to be making this 'not a big deal' then it will only to prevent widespread panic (i.e run for your lives panic, rather than what we have seen). Governments always do that when managing disasters.

 

03/18/11 8:56 PM

Joan Cootes posted:
Riktor posted:
Old Moparz posted:
Riktor posted:
In a utopia, there is a source of energy which is clean, efficient, cheap, and completely safe from human failings. In reality, there is none. Nuclear comes the closest with two out of four.

Nuclear comes the closest? Of the four factors to compare varying energy sources to, none are even on the same page. That's like four people going to the doctor & being told that they are "sick" & need treatment. Person #1 has a head cold, person #2 has a paper cut, person #3 has a bruise, but person #4 has a head injury with their brain exposed. They can all get asprin & go home.

If nuclear, coal, natural gas, wind, solar, or any other possible type of fuel can be used, I see nuclear as the only one that can put the largest number of people at risk & make a huge area uninhabitable for several generations. It's happened already & I see it happening again within my lifetime. In 1979 Three Mile Island scared the crap out of a lot of us. In 1986 Chernobyl killed thousands & caused who knows how many others to be sick. It was estimated in the 100,000's.

Riktor posted:
I understand the opposition to nuclear. I really do. However, there are six billion people on this planet and wind farms and solar panels just ain't going to get the fucking job done. Right now, with the technology we have, nuclear is the best course of action, both financially and practically.

Ideally, we should be working on new sources of energy. Cold fusion would a great start. However, I'm not about to start tearing down cooling towers because four reactors in Japan couldn't withstand a wrath-of-God-caliber 9.0 magnitude earthquake and a 33-foot tsunami. SONGS - roughly thirty minutes from my house - is rated to withstand a 7.0 mag quake max, and it was built a decade after the reactors at Fukushima Daiichi.

Yes, nuclear power facilities should be built to withstand the greatest seismic event conceivable for their locale. If you asked anyone in Sendai if they thought it conceivable that they'd experience the third or fourth most powerful earthquake on record, I don't think you'd receive too many replies in the affirmative. The quake moved the island of Hokkaido 8 feet for fuck's sake.

I don't have an answer as to what source of power to use, but having worked in the engineering & construction field since 1986 & having witnessed incompetence, corruption, stupidity & more, I can safely say that I have no faith in people building something that can potentially put a huge part of the population at risk.

A company I was employed by in the late 80's had an inspector taking cash from the contractor for fudging his inspection reports saying that the piles driven for the bridge foundations were deep enough. They weren't & all had to be removed & replaced. It would have been interesting to see what may have happened if an overpass collapsed onto the interstate when traffic was on it.

Anything capable of generating enough electricity to power the City of New York is dangerous. Period.

Coal plants belch toxic gas into the atmosphere. Natural Gas plants explode. Dams break. All of these dangers are exacerbated by human laziness and incompetence, but they are necessary because we need power.

Really, this situation is no different than all the food-nuts running around looking down their noses at people who buy from corporate farms. There are too many people in this country - on this planet - to do things small. Power plants, like farms, need to be big and efficient in order to satisfy the needs of the public. If they aren't, then people die.

Yes, nuclear power is dangerous, and when things go wrong at nuclear power plants they go wrong in big ways. However, history has shown us things rarely go wrong. You can point at Japan all you want to illustrate your point but it doesn't change the fact these reactors were hit by the third most powerful earthquake in recorded fucking history, and then got a course of tsunami for dessert. Face it, man, these circumstances are rather extenuating.

Coal plants, natural gas plants, dams. If any of these sources of energy break or get damaged, does the fallout from them hang around in the atmosphere, soil, oceans, for years and still cause health problems for future generations?

"history has shown us things rarely go wrong" with nuclear power plants. Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima, all these things have happened in the last 35 years. That is not rare, that is disastrous.

You're not thinking about this with the right perspective. For how many years have coal plants been belching carbon dioxide into the atmosphere? How many people have died or suffered as a result? It is almost incalculable, whereas the effects of Chernobyl, however horrific, were highly localized.

You speak of nuclear disasters being catastrophic, but you have yet to actually point out a case which could, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered as such. Yes, Chernobyl was bad, but was it catastrophic? Hardly. People still live in Ukraine and Russia and Belarus. The fallout which so concerns you is limited to an exclusion zone some nineteen miles in diameter, and even then there are few pockets where radiation is so intense as to preclude visitation. As others have already made note, just this year, the Ukrainian government opened up The Zone to tourism. You can even visit Pripyat for a little while without worry of irradiating yourself.

 

03/19/11 3:19 AM

Fairly easy to say the effects were localized when neither you or those you loved died later of the result. The danger of radiation is very real. And in not many ways immediate. It is a tricky death. We will all see in time. Not to be all gloomy doomy. I guess it is as such a necessity as taking the top off of the Appalachian mountains for coal. And in respect of reading previous threads and in my own research. We find ourselves in a collective mess with no real solution. I think those of us that breathe freely should be very thankful and thats all. No fixing this mess. Unless of course someone has an Idea for all. I highly doubt that.

 

03/19/11 3:19 AM

OMS posted:
melissa posted:
What I wonder is if
"The radiation from Fukushima even in a full melt down will have ZERO effect on anyone outside of Japan, you need to understand the science more."
Why is the heath department here in slo now giving out free potassium iodine?
if no risk why give out drug that could have some severe side effects?
I know that it's intended to help prevent against thyroid gland cancer....
if the risk is high enough to need protection against thyroid gland cancer, then to me it seems like you would still be at risk for other types of cancer.
I don't have a PHD but it seems like common sense...
I'm not trying to start a scare.
I'm just trying to gather information and i don't trust the media or government to keep me informed.
i don't want me or any of my loved ones to end up getting cancer because we didn't leave, because we were misinformed.

Where is here? US?

The KI is used to keep the thyroid from absorbing the radiation...iodine is essential for thyroid heath that is why it's added to table salt. This can't be done for other organs/cancers. There is no need for any to be given out to the US as there is no risk of the people in the US to be exposed to CANCER CAUSING LEVELS OF RADIATION.

No, this is not PhD stuff...just common sense.

ETA: Reports of iodine sickness from those already self-medicating

Sorry I thought you remembered my last message a page back. I'm on the central coast, and was working in Los Osos , the heath department and pharmacies there were giving out free potassium iodine.
also check this news out [www.cnn.com]
if things get worse in Japan as far as not being able to prevent melt down.... do you still think it won't risk the heath of US? it can travel here(at least that what is now being reported), to what degree i don't really think anyone knows...
And I don't even want to think of the weather... We (central coast, Ca) are in the middle of a storm with winds that look(on world weather maps) like they are coming from Japan. A bigger storm right behind it ugghh.
anyway I just wanted some feedback, different points of views.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 
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