vystral posted:

Do not miss it! 9PM EST. CNN, Fox, whatever you watch.

McCain said he wouldn't attend unless congress reached a decision on the bailout. I guess he changed his mind, because he was there a couple of hours ago checking out the stage.

I missed it, by forgetting it was happening tonight. When it was on, I was watching the Transformer movie.





But then again, I said a few months back that I am voting for Obama no matter what, because of McCain being the crappy Republican option. Now if it was Obama versus Ron Paul then I would have given a damn about tonight.

I don't think a clear winner emerged. Obama people think Obama won. McCain people think he won. At least they were both on the record saying where they stand.

OMS posted:

I'm half expecting Obama to bitch-slap McCain any second now.

LOL That would have been the highlight of my week.

In all seriousness, I think the debate brought out their true colors. Obama tried to attack the issues, McCain tried to attack Obama.

It annoyed me to no end that McCain had trouble even looking at Obama. Also the constant, "Senator Obama doesn't understand"...

McCain just gets under my skin in the worst possible way. This bit probably annoyed me the most.

[www.youtube.com]

I thought Obama was the winner because this was supposed to be John McCain's time to really shine and show that he was the best and the brightest on foreign policy and he failed to do that. Obama was just as good in that section. The first portion that was about the economy I also thought Obama was the winner because he was actually answering most questions and McCain was just regurgitating speeches that I've heard him say over and over. I'm also not as concerned about the "pork barrel" spending as he is so he really lost me there. Also, the fact that his running mate asked for earmarks to study harbor seals, etc. does not help his strong stance. The other way that I felt that Obama won was in demeanor. John McCain looked angry, frustrated and even mean. He was trying to belittle and not debate Obama. I found it quite nasty and unbecoming. He didn't look at Obama once. Obama was a gentleman but he still got his jabs in, oh, and he actually looked at McCain at times. I know that some felt that he agreed with McCain too much but I did not find that to be an issue for me as I am tired of mud slinging. If that was supposed to be John McCain's glory debate then he is in a hell of a lot of trouble and this pleases me immensely. He's been a bit off his rocker lately so if he has any chance in the other debates he needs to cut the shit and start really debating the issues. He also needs to stop hiding behind being a veteran and POW. No one is questioning that he is a true hero but he needs to stop leaning on it so much in debates as it starts to seem played out and false which is not the emotion he is trying to invoke.

Obama has a new 30 second ad and the subject is from last night's debate.

The title of the ad is Zero. OMG a Year Zero spotting!

[my.barackobama.com]

I thought the debate was revealing for both candidates. I wanted to keep an open mind and see for myself. Whether who won or who may have lost is not the main concern I have. What I saw was Senator McCain being angry, emotional, closed, he did not even once look at Senator Obama and then go on a tirade about Henry Kissinger/Iran and how he would never sit down with other world leaders. That is one of America's big problems. We think we are right and refuse to listen or converse with nations who have a different culture and view of the world. It is ESSENTIAL that we as a nation sit down and talk and use diplomacy. I listened to Iran's leader speak on Democracy Now and he never said the horrible things Senator McCain said he did. To misquote a leader of a nation the size of Iran and so important to our positions in the Middle East was irresponsible and clinched for me that Senator McCain is not the leader we need at this time. We have had eight years of this type of grandiose posturing and it has done nothing for us but alienate our allies and tarnish the worlds view of America.

Here is the link btw to the interview on DN

[www.democracynow.org]

Most importantly from the interview he stated this;

AMY GOODMAN: You would support a two-state solution, if they do?
PRESIDENT MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD: [translated] Wherever people decide, we will respect it. I mean, it’s very much in correspondence with our proposal to allow Palestinian people to decide through free referendums. We’ve been saying this for several years as a proposal. But those who use democracy as a pretext everywhere else are not—don’t think the Palestinians need democracy

There were no threats to remove Israel from existence.

It occurred to me that in a way he was describing what the European invasion of America was and our displacement and genocide of Native Americans. This affirms, in my mind, how important it is for America to see the world and civilizations from their/others points of view.

So for me, Senator McCain lost my support at this point.
Now I know this is shallow, but he was creepy, sticking his tongue out when he talked, and looked like he was a remote controlled robot.
Again I state, I am tired of this we won't talk to you, we'll just come in and kick your ass mentality. I think he showed himself to be just like this current administration and frankly, I am not for a draft and we can't keep sending the same soldiers in over and over again. Talk about supporting the troops! We need to talk and use diplomacy.
I agree he is a hero and his service to our country is something I respect him for, but I think he can still be of service in the senate, but not as the president.
Senator Obama won my support and clearly proved himself to be "presidential".

Here is a line from Senator McCain that I thought was hilarious...

I looked into Mr. Putin's eyes, and I saw three letters, a "K," a "G," and a "B." And their aggression in Georgia is not acceptable behavior.


WOW... You know what? When Russia looks back they see three letters too, a "C", an "I" and an "A"..lolz.

That was weak to say the least.

Senator McCain also stated this.

The Iranians have a lousy government, so therefore their economy is lousy, even though they have significant oil revenues.

Sorry, but who has these things? Again, i lolz.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2008 12:25PM by Motherboard.

What is all this bracelet bullshit?

Motherboard, I agree with everything you have said. I was practically yelling at the television set last night as McCain scoffed at the idea of meeting with world leaders without preconditions.

Pepito posted:

What is all this bracelet bullshit?

To be more specific, McCain went on a rant about how this mother who lost her son in the war begged him to do everything in his power so that her son's death would not be in vain. She gave McCain a bracelet with her son's name on it.

Obama said that he had a bracelet too. His bracelet came from a mother who also lost her son. She asked him to make sure that another mother is not going through what she is. He followed up with "No U.S. soldier ever dies in vain."

People seem to be in an uproar because Obama had to read the name of the soldier from his bracelet.

You can get the whole bit of that argument here:

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2008 02:00PM by WeepingRaven.

Blinky posted:

bat21 posted:

It was a draw. They were both so determined to stay on message that neither of them took advantage of the other's mistakes.

Pretty much. This debate wasn't a game changer. If you liked Obama before, you still do, and the same goes for McCain. I really wish that they would have taken advantage of the debate format. The moderator was practically begging them to go head to head, but instead, they just ended up trading stump speeches.

Although, to add some balance to this thread, you could have gotten a good buzz if you took a shot every time Obama said he agreed with McCain. Also, what's this about missile defense systems? Another issue is that he talked about is the exact same thing that people were attacking Palin for, going into Pakistan to fight Al-Qaeda. Anyone here going to attack him for that?

I'm in shock...someone in this thread actually watched the debate with an open mind

As far as the swing vote is concerned, the reality is there are a lot of swing votes up for grabs (and for the record, not all of these voters rely on news from Entertainment Tonight as claimed in another thread, but I digress). I don't think either McCain *or* Obama gained the extra votes needed. Though Barak scored points with his position on diplomacy whereas he was willing to talk and respect different cultures, and on the other hand I thought McCain scored points when he brought up his past voting record (which in fact McCain has been bi-partisan) in dealing with passing bills and not being ensalved to his party.

I was hoping for both candidates to actually spell out what his plan would be if elected to handle the economy, but neither one really spelt out what he was going to do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2008 04:33PM by anais_morr.

30fuVkingdollars posted:

i don't believe the debate changed any minds. i'm pleased with his performance. imo ... McCain looked like a frightened little rabbit. Obama looked much stronger attempting many times to engage eye contact with the PUSS.

Well I would not go that far. But Obama did come off as being more effective with his eye contact and keeping better control than McCain did. In fairness to McCain, I think it comes down to a generation thing. I'm not suprised no one here has commented that Obama addressed Sen McCain as "John" whereas McCain addressed Obama as "Sen Obama" not as "Barak". That's not to say that Obama lacks respect for McCain and vice versa. It's just different styles with communication. I also think it is safe to say that McCain is old school when it comes in dealing with conflict in which it's more or less "my way or the highway." Sometimes you need that dealing with some leaders like Putin and Ahmadinejad. Sometimes that way in handling things could back fire as well.

30fuVkingdollars posted:

one thing i can't figure out - who are these undecided's? lol

I'm undecided and I also know some people who are also undecided in who to vote for. Some of these people wanted either Clinton or Paul as the candidates and now they are at a loss in whom to vote for. It's also a very critical election whereas we are at war and in the midst of the worse economic crisis since the depression. We have also lost a great deal of our manufacturing jobs to third world nations.

Look, I get that you like Obama (as with most of the people here on this board). But I hate to burst your bubble: not everyone is comfortable with the fact that Obama has limited experience. We already had two presidents back to back who had very limited experience in government before taking the White House: Bush *and* Clinton and look what happened. One guy wanted to be everyone's friend and told people what they wanted to hear (Clinton) and the other guy wanted to make the world a better place according to his own standards (Bush). Both Clinton and Bush barely knew anything about economics and foreign policy when elected. I'm no fan of GW Bush, but to blame this entire economic mess on Bush is real bull shit. This mess started back in 1998 when the Clinton administration literally forced banks to lower their standards so anyone could qualify for a loan. Look, I'm all for people in getting ahead, but there a number of people who got those loans who had no business in getting those loans in the first place. Clinton also did not give a toss about US workers in the manufacturing industry and gave no incentives to those companies in keeping its factories open here in the US. Bush messed up big time because he had plenty of time to rectify things, but failed to do anything with the exception in getting us involved in a war which is costing us a fortune and did not solve a damn thing either.


I think both McCain and Obama have their pros and cons. I like McCain in which he wants to get the job done, willing to go way out of his way and he also has a record crossing party lines several times during his career. I also like Obama in that he is smart and talented and I do feel that Obama genuinely does want to make this country a better place. But is that enough right now? I'm also not crazy about Joe Biden and Sara Palin as Vice President.

So sorry the choice is not that clear cut for some of us. I just want to be confident in who I vote for this November.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2008 05:12PM by anais_morr.

Pepito posted:

McCain is all "Oh shit I forgot to mention I'm a POW!" then he threw it in at the end.

I know.....I was like, "where's all the POW shit? Oh, wait, there it is!" haha. He almost forgot it.

Here are my personal thoughts (which means they could all be BS): I felt that last night's was pretty damn good overall. Less candy-ass than in the past, more actual debating than the last election, but maybe there was a little too much back and forth bickering over bullshit (who gives a rat's ass over the semantics of what "preconditions" means?) than what was necessary.

I think Obama showed that he can definitely hold his own when it comes to foreign affairs (what was supposed to be his weak point), but McCain got in some jabs about experience that might make people think twice about Obama. Both of them seemed to spend more time attacking each other over the economy than I would have wanted - I want more solutions - but hopefully they'll be able to address this more in later debates. McCain seemed more condescending than I've seen him before, and it doesn't look good on him. Obama was definitely frustrated when McCain got condescending or when he said things that were wrong, and he might need to work on that some. But that's all BS in the end...I really just give a damn about solutions. But unfortunately, many voters are moved by appearances, so they do make a difference.

BTW....they both looked MILES more intelligent than Bush.

....but then so does a cantaloupe.

WeepingRaven posted:

Pepito posted:

What is all this bracelet bullshit?

To be more specific, McCain went on a rant about how this mother who lost her son in the war begged him to do everything in his power so that her son's death would not be in vain. She gave McCain a bracelet with her son's name on it.

Obama said that he had a bracelet too. His bracelet came from a mother who also lost her son. She asked him to make sure that another mother is not going through what she is. He followed up with "No U.S. soldier ever dies in vain."

People seem to be in an uproar because Obama had to read the name of the soldier from his bracelet.

You can get the whole bit of that argument here:

[www.youtube.com]

Too add another twist, the soldiers father was on Wisconsin Public Radio and said that his ex-wife had specifically asked Berry not to wear the bracelet anymore. Listen to the show here (it starts at about 10 min in)

Transcript:

posted:

Brian Jopek: Because of some of the negative feedback she's gotten on the Internet, you know Internet blogs, you know people accusing her of... or accusing Obama of trying to get votes doing it... and that sort of thing.

Radio Host Moberg: Yeah

Jopek: She has turned down any subsequent interviews with the media because she just didn't want it to get turned into something that it wasn't. She had told me in an email that she had asked, actually asked Mr. Obama to not wear the bracelet any more at any of his public appearances. Which I don't think he's...

Moberg: It has been a while since he's brought it up.

Jopek: Right. But, the other night I was watching the news and he was on, uh, speaking somewhere and he was still wearing it on his right wrist. I could see it on his right wrist. So, that's his own choice. I mean that's something Barack Obama, that's a choice that he continues to wear it despite Tracy asking him not to... Because she is a Barack Obama supporter and she didn't want to do anything to sabotage his campaign, so, if he's still wearing the bracelet then, uh, that of course is entirely up to him.

Moberg: Maybe there's a difference between wearing it and making a point to bring it up in your speeches?

Motherboard posted:

[www.democracynow.org]

Most importantly from the interview he stated this;

AMY GOODMAN: You would support a two-state solution, if they do?
PRESIDENT MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD: [translated] Wherever people decide, we will respect it. I mean, it’s very much in correspondence with our proposal to allow Palestinian people to decide through free referendums. We’ve been saying this for several years as a proposal. But those who use democracy as a pretext everywhere else are not—don’t think the Palestinians need democracy

There were no threats to remove Israel from existence.

And you talk about me ignoring history?

First I want to touch on the subject of Israel. Whether or not Ahmadinejad said/meant the statement "Israel should be wiped off the map" ...obviously I don't support that. It's crazy. At the same time, we cannot keep sweeping Israel's dirty work under the rug. The countless crimes against humanity committed against Arabs does need to stop. Of course we're not going to shed light on any of that since Israel are our buddies. "Wiped off the map"? No, but we need to stop supporting Israel even when they do wrong.

30fuVkingdollars posted:

lol WINNING is knowing when to leave. we overstayed our welcome long ago. at least Obama had the foresight knowing the invasion into Iraq was WRONG from the beginning.

I agree... but pride has a lot of Americans by the balls. It seems some people would rather continue with a war that we KNOW is wrong than to admit we were/are wrong. In my honest opinion, I think the rest of the world would respect us more if we did the latter.

anais_morr posted:

I also think it is safe to say that McCain is old school when it comes in dealing with conflict in which it's more or less "my way or the highway." Sometimes you need that dealing with some leaders like Putin and Ahmadinejad. Sometimes that way in handling things could back fire as well.

I think saying "it's my way or the highway" without hearing what the other leaders have to say... without some intent to compromise is just wrong. Tough talk only works to piss the rest of the world off.

BlueLarkspur posted:

BTW....they both looked MILES more intelligent than Bush.

....but then so does a cantaloupe.

Or even a rock.