mixing techniques, hello?
 
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09/16/08 1:30 PM

sometimes you have an idea, that keeps you working long hours. an idea that needs to be discovered. and i would like to share a few of these.
i am a guy stuck to mixing bands (i absolutely enjoy it, though) so my thoughts are mostly limited to mixing / production techniques.

- has anyone ever tried to reverse an audio file and process it dynamically (gate, slow comp, expander) - then reverse it back?

- something i think i believed to find in alan moulders mixes were different athmospheres within a song. i gave it a try and instead of mixing a song from kickdrum to vocals, i gave every section of a song a different appropriate feeling and then connected them together (which happened quite naturally). and my results were kind of interesting. has anyone of you made an experience with such approach?

- mixing with advanced stereophonic panning (usage of delay, gain & "eqing" for the placement within the sterofield) always gives me lots of artificial ambience and space.

- well, there's some fashion-technique called "The New York Trick" (upward compression of drum & bass groups). which obviously is a great way to increase loudness and punch without loosing clarity.

- i love mixing with lots of dynamic space (like +20dB(avg) from verse to chrous), but most clients felt the results were too extreme and my mastering engineer hates me. anyway, "extreme" sometimes is exactly what i'd like to achieve.
in the same category i'd find the mixing with an intentionally different frequency sprectrum. why the hell should every song be mastered and mixed like the "real big ones"? nobody even dares to try. not even nin. (i know there's a good reason to the actual power weighting in masters these days. compatibility pays off. fuck money)

i hope to find others with equeal problems or ideas...
see you



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2008 12:34PM by terabel.

 

09/16/08 9:25 PM

terabel posted:
why the hell should every song be mastered and mixed like the "real big ones"? nobody even dares to try. not even nin. (i know there's a good reason to the actual power weighting in masters these days. compatibility pays off. fuck money)

see you

That´s not true. Lights in the sky doesn´t have much signal. Is not mastered as the rest of the songs now a days. It´s really quiet and just responds to the feeling of the song.
And what about with teeth (the song)? In the part where it says "i cannot go through this again" They do basically the same thing.

 

09/17/08 12:08 AM

Eze posted:
terabel posted:
why the hell should every song be mastered and mixed like the "real big ones"? nobody even dares to try. not even nin. (i know there's a good reason to the actual power weighting in masters these days. compatibility pays off. fuck money)

see you

That´s not true. Lights in the sky doesn´t have much signal. Is not mastered as the rest of the songs now a days. It´s really quiet and just responds to the feeling of the song.
And what about with teeth (the song)? In the part where it says "i cannot go through this again" They do basically the same thing.

I Agree.

One of NIN feature are the Loud_Quiet_Loud Changes in the songs.

 

09/17/08 12:55 AM

I like Space Designer's (in Logic) ability to reverse the reverb.

I do like reversing piano and using reversed kicks for some atmospheric drum patterns.

 

09/17/08 12:59 AM

one ; Mix with your ears....use your eyes second. Turn off the monitor and just listen sometimes.

two ; Record it right first so you dont have to go over it a second, third, fourth, fiftieth time.

three ; Avoid overusing the compression. It sucks out the dynamics from vocals and guitars and causes headaches. You know that headache you get listening to the radio or an entire Justice or Vsnares album...thats because of overcompression!

four ; On the topic of overcompression, lay back on the fx unless they are necessary for what you are doing. Even then....less is more and more is muddy.

five ; Yes, you can mix on headphones. Just turn them down, get to know how your headphones respond, and mix everything in relation to your central focus knowing that even with the best headphones, you'll only get 80% of the way.

six ; If you are doing audiowork for/with others...make sure they understand not to waste your time. They should be ready for practice, aim for consistency, be ready to record within a reasonable amount of time after "warm up", and shut up when it is not their turn to play.

seven ; Without being pushed around, be flexible.

eight ; Recording a duplicate of an instrument or vocal beats just cloning it to another track.

This could go on but basics are important.
The rest you learn from experience.

 

09/17/08 3:17 AM

theviirus posted:
less is more and more is muddy.


YES!! YES!!! YES!!!


And also...


There's no "We can fix it in the mix" quick fix. (Try saying THAT fast five times after a few sherries!!)

Take your time to get it right sound-wise first time (or as near to as poss). Use the pink sticky out things on the side of your head to source your desired sound and slap the mic (or two ...or ten!!) right there.

Trust your ears.

You will save HEAPS of time in mix session if the recording is great to start with.



(I mix for TV mostly, so how I work is different to music mixers - but the basic principles are still that same: mix for the job that you are doing and not for the latest 'fashion')

smiling smiley

 

09/17/08 6:35 AM

Arguser posted:
Eze posted:
terabel posted:
why the hell should every song be mastered and mixed like the "real big ones"? nobody even dares to try. not even nin. (i know there's a good reason to the actual power weighting in masters these days. compatibility pays off. fuck money)

see you

That´s not true. Lights in the sky doesn´t have much signal. Is not mastered as the rest of the songs now a days. It´s really quiet and just responds to the feeling of the song.
And what about with teeth (the song)? In the part where it says "i cannot go through this again" They do basically the same thing.

I Agree.

One of NIN feature are the Loud_Quiet_Loud Changes in the songs.

i tried to make a point about the overall frequency spectrum. there's a difference between frequency power distribution and leftover dynamics. i'm afraid i was aiming a little too high.

so let it be engineering basics then.

- care about timealignment. including a/d delays. ever tried to align every single drumtrack to it's overheads?

- actually compression is the most extreme artificial effect you can do to a signal. there's no reason to compress every track just because you can. and there are a lot of different approaches to use a compressor. care about their differences

- eqing is fun, but don't forget that equalizing distort the phase. for example: kick drum bass boosting also results in delay of the bass compared to the rest - therefore lossing tightness...

- recording is essential. so is correct dealing with an "artist", supporting his creativity abolishing all hindrances. so is file handling (which sampling rate for what use, dithering, session managment, file managment, clearly given file names, dating,...).

- mic selection speaks for itself. want to catch emotion? give the artist the need to express him. there's no audience in a recording room, make sure he forgets about that.

- rules are bullshit. "don't compress during recording!" fuck off. "compress during recording!" fuck off. do what you feel(!!) is right.
if it feels better everything is allowed. record the singer in a swimming pool, high on mdma. drums sound sound so shitty brutal when recorded in a tiny toilet - great. tube amp with broken tubes - amazing - run the reverbs through it. burn the mic during tracking to feel like marilyn manson. let the singer fuck your ass during the session and marilyn is baby turd. whatever.

- everyone is different and we're all the same. maybe your client earns 2million bucks with his mp3s and you'll only get 2000$ for all the work - he's still just human. his pretty little face runs up and down in mtv, he might still just be a great guy to hang out, and looks forward to people that treat him that way. an arrogant asshole stays an arrogant asshole no matter if he's sound engineer or singer.

- have fun with what you do!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2008 06:03AM by terabel.

 

09/17/08 8:57 PM

terabel posted:
i tried to make a point about the overall frequency spectrum. there's a difference between frequency power distribution and leftover dynamics. i'm afraid i was aiming a little too high.


Sorry i misread...
I guess there´s a reason why people just don´t mix like that. I mean, besides average. Certain "rules" (wich i agree with you, fuck them) are based on some principals. I think i need to listen to something mixed like that to really apreciate it and give my opinion. Do you have something?
I remember once i did a mix and my teacher told the back up vocals were too loud compared to the lead vocals. And that was exactly what i was trying to do. He still didn´t get, but fuck him, i got the result i wanted.
Still i need to learn so much... still a rookie..

 

09/19/08 7:43 AM

but as long as you're learning from such arguments you will advance.

right now i'm working on an album with a band i've been touring with for several years. release date is in the last week of december - and i guess we're giving a few tracks away for free.
a lot of these ideas are featured on this album (as the music is quite experimental itself). i hope to get a little response - and i guess most will not like it, just because they're used to the standard ways. i do hope that these people will open their mind after listening it more often.

 

09/19/08 7:00 AM

For Beginners:
Check out some work by BT, get this amazing DVD:

click here for more info about the DVD

the soundquality isnt that good but you can learn much from what he is doing...
this dvd is a little bit older, still has some inspirations to me. He talks about how he does his amazing stutteredits and stuff... for a beginner this is a must see ( i mean i would hardly reccomand it to watch...)

also he talks a little about "reson" and he is very entertaining to watch ;-D

and i just can say that i totally agree with theviirus...

Greets TweakerRay

 

09/19/08 8:48 PM

ok...I think I've found what I need.

I'm a "solo" artist so to speak...and I do everything myself, on my shitty little home PC, so my uses are quite limited.

I wanted to ask about the best way to record, process and mix vocals. The music isn't really a problem for me cause I say fuck the rules, I'm gonna do what I want...but I feel that my vocals are lacking. A LOT.

Any pointers!?!

you can listen to some of my tracks here and tell me what you think. I'd really appreciate any help you can give me.

Oh yeah...I'm using a shitty 20 dollar mic I picked up at best buy that plugs into my shitty Soundblaster Live port and I use reason and cool edit pro 2.0 (I believe that's the version). So yeah...some basic pointers would be really great!

 

09/20/08 12:50 AM

Well first of all (i didn´t hear the music by the way) with the things you have there´s a certain top you can get. I mean, you´ll be able to do some things, but it you really want to sound good, at least buy a shure sm57 and a M-audio fast track pro. I mean... you´ll be spending around 300 dollars and you´ll get something decent to record. Also get Nuendo or Cubase or some cooler soft for your DAW, that way you can get plug ins like melodyne (wich to me, if you´re a singer it´s must. God you can do so much with it!).
But as i said before, i´m just a beginner.
Wait to read what the pros have to say spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

 

09/22/08 12:43 AM

TweakerRay posted:
and i just can say that i totally agree with theviirus..
Thank you!
It brightens my day when people take me seriously.

 

09/22/08 12:50 AM

Well I have learned from a lot of talented engineers, but to be honest when asking about how to mix a song/ whats your secrect.... the response is the same. There is no right way to mix a song. So if i can give you some tips here they are

1. Use many many references
-dont think that since your mix sounds good on your speakers they will sound good everywhere. Check it in your car, your headphones, some shitty ass pc monitors. You need to understand how your monitors respond. When i go to diffrent studios I love to use a reference CD that I know very very well. That way I can tell what the monitors are doing

2. Compression...when the hell do i use it???
Now I still use compression but I use it more as a character then as a dynamic processor
If I need to fix my levels I will just ride the faders. Now when it comes to a final mixdown, I would never compress my mix if i was to send it to a mastering engineer, but if i am just using my laptop and making remixes then I will do my best to get the right balance. Sometimes I like to use Spectrafoo its a great analyzer!

3. Subtractive EQing A great way to start

4. Record Hot So you don't have to raise the gain and the noise floor with it later

There are many more but i think I typed enough lol.

 

09/22/08 9:43 AM

Adding to what 2tom182 said, take a few CDs with you wherever you go for general reference purposes as well as to get an idea of what the monitoring system is like.

i.e. If you're mixing and have hit a metaphorical brickwall (e.g. "I don't like the way my guitars are sitting with the vocals and the drums sound poo!!" ) have a listen to a couple of tracks from your CDs and compare with what you have going on in your mix. You might have a brainwave/idea/nervous breakdown!!

grinning smiley

If you're completely stumped, pull all the faders down to their end stops and then just throw them upward randomly. (Well, it's as good a place to start as any!!)

winking smiley


Also, if you're in a studio: BE NICE TO YOUR ASSISTANT ENGINEER/TAPE OP!!!! This person makes your tea and gets your sandwiches. Be nice to them and they'll be nice to you!! ...and won't spit in your tea/sandwiches if you do the reverse...

grinning smiley grinning smiley grinning smiley

 

09/26/08 6:12 AM

Here's a DAW technique that I know is a point of contention between certain schools of audio engineers. Master bus compression.

Back in my earlier days, as can be expected, I was unhappy with the dynamics of my mixes.. So naturally turned to nasty master bus compression or maximisers after the fact, to try and beef things up.. Of course, this ended up breaking everything I was hoping to fix. Such is the plight of the rookie. Few can afford hardware master EQ's and compressors etc to get the job done properly. Many years later, I heard the following technique, initially writing it off as something I had already attempted.

I forget where I happened upon this, but it essentially involves applying master bus compression (and if desired, some subtle maximisation) before you actually start the tracking process. What this actually accomplishes, (of course only to a certain degree) is that it eliminates what is one of the biggest problem mixing in a DAW environment. This is of course excessive hard clipping and proper headroom mangement.
What you end up with is an analogue-esque environment, where the dynamics behave differently, and do not tend to run out of headroom with a nasty hard clip when you fall off of the digital cliff.
The technique of course only really works with very carefull compressor selection, which you must know front to back, use as sparingly as possible, and most importantly know what sound you're going for to begin with. Just because a tool is called a master compressor, doesn't mean that it is good at that job. Personally, I tend towards nice warm response, with a degree of saturation. This is one technique, which I do not always employ, and use only when tending towards analogue colour. Other mixers I know extend this out to using identical setups on all tracks. This then emulates the kind of colour you would hear from using physical channel strips in an analogue mixer, in addition to summing bus colour. Those guys are into metal, and are forever chasing the classic Neve console sound on Behringer budgets winking smiley

Overall this method can be very handy to keep in the toolbelt. It ends up slightly changing every decision you make on the project. You tend to use less compression on individual tracks, EQ only what is needed to keep the project on track, and basically fiddle less with unimportant decisions which can be detrimental. It must be said that I learned a lot through experimenting with this method. I doubt that I would recommend this for absolute beginners though, as it would be too easy to completely destroy mixes.

Keep it in mind, and have a play. You may hate the sound, or way of working, but experimentation yields results, even if you have learned yet another thing you don't want to try ever again smiling smiley

 

10/21/08 2:31 AM

THE_DIGITAL_PRINCESS posted:
I like Space Designer's (in Logic) ability to reverse the reverb.

I do like reversing piano and using reversed kicks for some atmospheric drum patterns.

reversing anything has always been great! a friend of mine composed a track for two marimbas. one playing an easy pattern
while the other one plays a different pattern reversed. it's hell to recreate in a live show, but the idea and the result on the album
are fantastic imo.

 

10/21/08 2:50 AM

lysergicide posted:
ok...I think I've found what I need.

I'm a "solo" artist so to speak...and I do everything myself, on my shitty little home PC, so my uses are quite limited.

I wanted to ask about the best way to record, process and mix vocals. The music isn't really a problem for me cause I say fuck the rules, I'm gonna do what I want...but I feel that my vocals are lacking. A LOT.

Any pointers!?!

you can listen to some of my tracks here and tell me what you think. I'd really appreciate any help you can give me.

Oh yeah...I'm using a shitty 20 dollar mic I picked up at best buy that plugs into my shitty Soundblaster Live port and I use reason and cool edit pro 2.0 (I believe that's the version). So yeah...some basic pointers would be really great!

well nice ideas!! the gritty guitar-sounds and drumsamples are a matter of taste. the lack of bass is a bit dissappointing for me (i'm too much a fan of good bottom end to forgive this).
the fact that your mix bus is pumping like hell even without a serious amount of bass is something i don't understand.
after listening to three of your tracks i got a little bored because of the lack of focus. it's a little like listening to lounge-music (sorry mate for being so hard) - a few things are looping for a while, and it's like some kind of soundscape, but there's nothing i can focus my mind on. no lead melody, vocals, whatever.

everything seem quite flat anyway. no punch in anything. (i was listening to your music on westlake bbsm4s and genelec 1031s).
and i couldn't find any vocals on the 6 songs you had on myspace...

after all i'd love to hear these songs tracked by real musicians. I love that kind of style!!

 

10/22/08 5:35 PM

terabel posted:
THE_DIGITAL_PRINCESS posted:
I like Space Designer's (in Logic) ability to reverse the reverb.

I do like reversing piano and using reversed kicks for some atmospheric drum patterns.

reversing anything has always been great! a friend of mine composed a track for two marimbas. one playing an easy pattern
while the other one plays a different pattern reversed. it's hell to recreate in a live show, but the idea and the result on the album
are fantastic imo.

I just have to figure out how to reverse a midi section, can you do that??

 

10/22/08 8:41 PM

is there another plug in that can reverse reverb? a vst one maybe? tongue sticking out smiley

 

10/23/08 3:59 AM

i don't know of any technique to reverse midi.

there's a program called gnmidi (www.gnmidi.com) for windos that has a reverse function. google it. a few wanted to do that before.

i nearly always record my reverb tracks and reverse them by hand. that way i'm not limited to any kind of plugin - and i am able to do the "classic reverse reverb" effect - with the reverb starting before the source signal and ending straight on it. (you hear that kind of fx in every second movie, e.g. when a horror-monster talks in your dreams....)

 

10/23/08 9:41 PM

of course... why didn´t i think of that.
That´s what you get when you depend to much on plug ins to do your own thinking. Idiot sad smiley

 

10/24/08 1:33 AM

See, I normally bounce off my midi section to audio then reverse it manually...

 

10/24/08 3:05 AM

reversing midi would just make sense if you want reverse a melody. the sound itself would still be the same.

 

10/24/08 7:36 AM

What I wanna do is play the midi section backwards, then bounce off to audio and reverse that playback, so it's the melody going normally, but the sound being backwards!

Hahaha. I confuse myself too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2008 06:36AM by THE_DIGITAL_PRINCESS.

 

10/25/08 8:17 AM

but a great idea. stick to it!!!

 

10/25/08 6:58 PM

But fuck if I can remember all the notes backwards!

 

10/29/08 12:01 PM

It would be fairly easy for a computer to do that with midi but I've never seen a tool that does it. Hmmmm, any programmers got some spare time? lol

 

10/30/08 1:38 PM

Hi there,
so I've been playing music for a loooong time (various instruments), but I've only started recording recently... are there some good online resources to help beginners like me? Like, I need to understand the basics (e.g. what do compressors do, how do they do it, why are they useful, etc.). Compression, EQ, mixing and mastering techniques, these are things I need to learn much more about...!

So does anybody have good suggestions about websites or books, etc., that I can use to learn this stuff? I mostly play guitar, bass, and keyboard, and I don't have real drums yet, and I record on my imac using Garageband mostly, although I have Logic and Reason and Ableton, and I'm learning to use those... I also have a BOSS hard disk recorder, which I use sometimes as well... I like using a mix of real audio and midi... Anyways, any advice that anybody can offer would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks!

Ombor

 

10/30/08 5:57 PM

[rapidshare.com]

hope you find this useful. It´s a pretty cool book...

 
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