Joan Cootes posted:

Here's another possible solution. Altogether you have something like 300,000 members worldwide. At any given time you might have, say, 3,000 people logged on. There are a lot of regular users out there (I'm one of them). How many users would you have in a month? 50,000? More? Less? Let's say you charge each user $US1 per month, paid up front, then they have access for the rest of that month.

Numbers wise, good idea, that would roll in some cash, butttt, on the other hand that would turn the site into paid membership *only*, which Trent said he wanted to move away from. The problem with that is a bunch of fans who *don't* have credit cards, or are you know paranoid after Year Zero and refuse to comply with the evil overlords of capitalism

Keep grooving on the numbers though, it's not like we're running out of forum space

Joan Cootes posted:

deniseml posted:

darksideshmarkside posted:

Trent is almost broke now? Or are current developments just making you figure that it won't be long before whatever he's managed wisely will be accessed for the acquisition of shiny things that satisfy short attention spans?




I'm reserving judgment until I see how far this new almost-scary-corporate kind of stuff goes...

That's business. I bet TR isn't as rich as he thinks he is. The cost of LiTS?

Shouldn't that be "as rich as we think he is"? You all automatically think that "rock star" = mega rich. Not always the case, people. He's got income and expenses just like anyone else, maybe on a slightly higher scale, but it's still income and expenses. And it seems that maybe the expenses (this website for instance) might be overtaking the income.

"All" of us don't automatically think anything. "Some" of us have acquaintances, or friends who are in a fairly equivalent situation to Trent's, and some of us have experience in the industry. A lot of entertainers don't do nearly as well as Trent has, but in the window of opportunity when they have done well, they've been smart with their finances, are not "spendy" in any way, and make shrewd deals with their property - their material - especially if they write their own songs, own them, and set up their own publishing and recording operations. All of which Trent has done.

I'm not arguing that the website isn't costly, or that there aren't ways to make it self-sustaining, including some non-intrusive, relevant ads, and possibly the option to donate (through some means other than PayPal, given that there have been serious issues with that site on both the buying and selling sides). And I'm not privy to Trent's financial records, so I don't know what his expenses are. I do suspect he underestimated how costly going it on his own might be when he finished out his contractual obligations to a label.

Just sayin'.

trent_reznor posted:

Before long, you will start to see some limited advertisements on nin.com in the forums area. This is an experiment to help sustain the development of nin.com technologies into the indefinite future. I know ads suck, but after much debate and thinking it through we're willing to see how it goes and how intrusive it is to the nin.com experience.
My mission is to continue developing nin.com and related mobile apps way past the point we are now and the reality of that is it costs money. Currently we're spending 10-20K / month on bandwidth / R&D outside of any specialized projects (mobile apps) and the possibility exists for the site to become self-sustaining through this process. Which means: more social / media integration and overall cool stuff for you for free moving into the future, for the price of seeing some ads. We'll play this one by ear and see how it goes and I appreciate your understanding of the situation.

TR don't worry, if it helps to get nin.com in shape, hey i could handle ad's, an so won't everyone else. peace&hugs Mary

More ideas plz.

Ads? Hmmm better than the ones I see usually. Trent, you are going into the future with biiiiiiiiig steps I bet nin.com will be still working in 100 years. We shall see.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2009 03:06AM by ElninaR.

I really appreciate everyone's input on the ideas I was kicking around. Thank you to you all, it's good to have constructive criticism/debate.

Trent would have considered all the angles and limited advertising does seem the best option. I had no clue it cost that much to keep the site running and subscriptions/donations are not reliable enough to guarantee the future. It is against everything that Trent has done anyway.

Trust him to make the right choice.

i just want to get it out there that i think the ads are brilliant its better than on other band sites *cough* incubus *cough* not naming any in particular where they advertise insurance and broadband on the site - at least it has something to do with nin! Go NIN!

Joan Cootes posted:

I really appreciate everyone's input on the ideas I was kicking around. Thank you to you all, it's good to have constructive criticism/debate.

Seriously, for the NIN community not slashing at peoples throat is a big accomplishment!

jarrettwold posted:

I don't think exclusivity is the road to go as far as you know exclusive merch etc... As, a lot of the complaints with the spiral was simply exclusivity.

I respectively disagree to some extent. The Spiral was a typical "fan club" set up-the only thing that irked me about it was by the time I actually became a NIN fan they weren't accepting new members anymore. As a typical fan club set up, it charged, from what I understand, a yearly fee of like $30-$50, which is something that, when you think about how much that would divide up on a per-month basis, isn't really that much ($30=$2.50 per moth, $50~$4.17 a month). Really though, I don't really like stuff where you can like "save money" by going by longer increments of time. If Trent were to set up a system where you can "choose" which increments of time you'd pay for "premium membership" in, ideally it would actually be even. So let's say you could pay yearly, monthly, or seasonly: going on the $30 a year model it would be $2.50 a month and $7.50 for every three months-no "discounts" for signing up for a longer period-just straight-up either pay it all now or pay it over time.

If it's cheap and flexible more people will want to sign on for it, things like exclusive merch would be cool-and hey if you want the shit all you have to do is as little as paying the subscription fee for a month just to buy it. Now on that note I don't think that exclusive merch should be the only "incentive"-like I just said someone could sign up for a month, get the merch, then cancel the premium membership. It'd be better if for instance their original reason was the merch-and their intention was to cancel-but then they discover all the other various and awesome benefits they can get and decide "Hey, I think I'll stay on with this thing!". That's the way to do it.

So on that note exclusive merch may be little more than an incentive to get people started-and in fact could prove to not be necessary at all. Also, I think that if it were to be done that the merch would be exclusive for a specific period of time before becoming public-much like some of the merch from the LitS tour eventually showing up in the online store. Let's say it's exclusive to premium members for three months, then goes into the public store-and new exclusive merch is hopefully rolled out to take its place (although it might be too much to expect this to be a constant cycle, at least in terms of new stuff coming out on a regular basis-but it would still be an interesting model).

I do think that access to new features that haven't been fully tested would be interesting-basically a true beta program of sorts (technically I think the whole site's still in beta for whatever reason). It would also operate much like the merch system I mentioned-available only to paying members for a time then available to everyone later-if you don't like it-try out membership for a month just to take a crack at it or wait a while and you can have it too.

Another model that could be considered would be similar to a number of video sites like Roster Teeth and That Guy With the Glasses. As a non-paying member you'll have access to streaming videos, music, etc.-but as a paying member you'll actually be able to download them to watch or listen to whenever you want on your computer or mobile devices. This obviously would be next to impossible to do with the video aggregation system and of course with any music put out while Trent was "in the system"-and since it's unlikely he'll be putting out new material for awhile, it might be reduced to like concert videos or something, or perhaps even audio from concerts.

I fact I've been wondering why he hasn't tried doing what bands like Disturbed have been attempting which is providing "official bootlegs" of their shows to the fans. Sure they're charging for it but since we're discussing models for making money well there you have it. The only issue would probably be again record-label red tape. Can Trent release and profit from live recordings of songs he originally wrote and recorded while under contract with Interscope and/or TV Records? Or would he be restricted to only releasing post-record label songs from Ghosts I-IV and The Slip?-which would be extremely limited for certain. I really wish some politicians would work out some legislation to protect the rights of artists like Trent to retain the ability to make money from their own fucking art, regardless of whether they made it for a record label or not-like just some way of redefining the label/artist relationship and giving both parties more equal rights to the artistic creations-although perhaps this rant is best saved for a different thread-so, moving on...

Also as I mentioned before involving "intangibles" or other various types of downloadable material can be risky given piracy and such-so features are really the best bet overall. There exclusive downloads could still work to a degree-perhaps with some form of innovative non-intrusive DRM (if that could actually be possible), or of course just trusting your members not to pirate it (yeah, sure...)-and of course going with the model of making it exclusive for a time with the promise of releasing it for free to the general public in the near-future. Also, as I mentioned the concept of downloadable media for paying members has worked for the sites I mentioned in spite of piracy (Roster Teeth in-particular gets a good deal of that with Red Vs. Blue). And really its more about putting out stuff that people LIKE and WANT TO PAY FOR that'll lead to success.

Anyway, I've went on a bit long on this one-just bringing a few more suggestions and ideas into the fold or whatever.

DJGamer posted:

If Trent were to set up a system where you can "choose" which increments of time you'd pay for "premium membership" in, ideally it would actually be even. So let's say you could pay yearly, monthly, or seasonly: going on the $30 a year model it would be $2.50 a month and $7.50 for every three months-no "discounts" for signing up for a longer period-just straight-up either pay it all now or pay it over time.

Agreed, being able to avoid monthly recurring fees would be a cool option.

DJGamer posted:

Also, I think that if it were to be done that the merch would be exclusive for a specific period of time before becoming public-much like some of the merch from the LitS tour eventually showing up in the online store. Let's say it's exclusive to premium members for three months, then goes into the public store-and new exclusive merch is hopefully rolled out to take its place (although it might be too much to expect this to be a constant cycle, at least in terms of new stuff coming out on a regular basis-but it would still be an interesting model).

I do think that access to new features that haven't been fully tested would be interesting-basically a true beta program of sorts (technically I think the whole site's still in beta for whatever reason). It would also operate much like the merch system I mentioned-available only to paying members for a time then available to everyone later-if you don't like it-try out membership for a month just to take a crack at it or wait a while and you can have it too.

I do agree with that, as it would ultimately be available to everyone, as well as the pay for a month purchase your stuff, then cancel would be an effective option. Solid idea. I also think doing the scarcity model of limited run merch would be a good thing to go with too. It would incentivize the whole process. However, the amount of bitching about that, holy fuck flames a plenty.

DJGamer posted:

There exclusive downloads could still work to a degree-perhaps with some form of innovative non-intrusive DRM (if that could actually be possible)
Anyway, I've went on a bit long on this one-just bringing a few more suggestions and ideas into the fold or whatever.

Nope, no DRM it doesn't work, at all. All it takes is one person cracking it, then it's pirated anyhow.

I don't mind the ads... mind you, I can't even see them because I have adblock

Thanks for the ad, Trent.

NscafeUnleaded posted:

trent_reznor posted:

This is an experiment to help sustain the development of nin.com technologies into the indefinite future.

If it works, it works, I'm okay with it. I think it's funny that it was the "What am I seeing ads?" that caught my attention and not the ad itself.

Hrm, maybe quick little text ad blurbs would work *shrug*

Lobotomy?


Seriously. How can TR have money from selling his own stuff to the same fans that knows what he is selling for a long time? It doesn't make sense to me: make a deal with IndieClick to sell NIN things on NIN boards.

Bring on the porn ads! All those NIN logos are head-aching me.