PHM Remaster Reviews
 
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11/20/10 1:40 PM

This is the place for your reviews of the new PHM remaster and to debate old vs new. I haven't received mine yet to be able to comment, but I am looking forward to joining the conversation.

 

11/20/10 7:56 AM

The sound is better for sure, but unfortunately it's at the expense of the dynamics. The loudness wars strike again! This isn't anywhere near as bad as Death Magnetic and I think most iPod users with casual in ear buds phones will find this may line up with a lot of the other material of recent years, but it's a shame that this nice new transfer had so much squashing done in the mastering phase, with limiting or brickwalling applied so that there is no clipping, as you can see from the "peak" field in the 2010 files.

Here are the dynamic range logs for each taken from a bit-for-bit EAC extraction of the original CD's:

(note - I removed GDML from the 2010 folder for straight comparison of the 10 PHM tracks)

posted:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: C:\Nine Inch Nails - 1989 - Pretty Hate Machine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR   	   Peak     	   RMS      	 Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR14	  -0.03 dB	 -16.66 dB	 01 - Head Like A Hole.wav
 DR12	  -0.19 dB	 -16.07 dB	 02 - Terrible Lie.wav
 DR12	   over    	 -13.28 dB	 03 - Down In It.wav
 DR15	   over    	 -18.79 dB	 04 - Sanctified.wav
 DR13	  -1.21 dB	 -18.58 dB	 05 - Something I Can Never Have.wav
 DR13	   over    	 -16.50 dB	 06 - Kinda I Want To.wav
 DR12	   over    	 -13.95 dB	 07 - Sin.wav
 DR13	   over    	 -16.01 dB	 08 - That's What I Get.wav
 DR13	   over    	 -16.57 dB	 09 - The Only Time.wav
 DR13	   over    	 -16.24 dB	 10 - Ringfinger.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:    10
 Official DR value:  DR13

posted:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: C:\Nine Inch Nails - 2010 - Pretty Hate Machine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR   	   Peak     	   RMS      	 Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR5	  -0.08 dB	  -6.84 dB	 01 - Head Like A Hole.wav
 DR5	  -0.00 dB	  -7.07 dB	 02 - Terrible Lie.wav
 DR6	  -0.03 dB	  -6.92 dB	 03 - Down In It.wav
 DR7	   over    	  -8.79 dB	 04 - Sanctified.wav
 DR7	  -0.16 dB	 -10.86 dB	 05 - Something I Can Never Have.wav
 DR6	  -0.16 dB	  -8.49 dB	 06 - Kinda I Want To.wav
 DR6	  -0.16 dB	  -8.74 dB	 07 - Sin.wav
 DR7	  -0.16 dB	  -9.73 dB	 08 - That's What I Get.wav
 DR6	  -0.16 dB	  -8.93 dB	 09 - The Only Time.wav
 DR6	  -0.16 dB	  -9.14 dB	 10 - Ringfinger.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:    10
 Official DR value:  DR6

For a comparison, here's Head Like A Hole's waveform:
(Sorry if they're a tiny bit large for your screen, when I shrank them they became hard to read, so I left them at their original size. They should be okay for anyone running 1024x768 or higher)

1989

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7272/hlah1989.jpg

2010

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4269/hlah2010.jpg

The original 1989 CD has twice the dynamic range of the 2010 re-master. Here's hoping perhaps when a Super Deluxe edition eventually comes out, when TR has more time to devote to such a project if he wants, that more care will be taken in the mastering.

IMO the new 2010 one will be better in the car and if you're working out or travelling with earphones in being mobile, the 1989 one will probably still be my choice for home listening. Maybe the vinyl will have better dynamics, this mix with 1989's dynamics would be the tits!



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 08:12AM by dobyblue.

 

11/20/10 11:33 AM

dobyblue posted:
...The original 1989 CD has twice the dynamic range of the 2010 re-master...
Damn damn damn where do you get your copies 2 days before the release day??? These are moments when i hate America!

 

11/20/10 1:02 PM

dobyblue posted:
The sound is better for sure, but unfortunately it's at the expense of the dynamics. The loudness wars strike again! This isn't anywhere near as bad as Death Magnetic and I think most iPod users with casual in ear buds phones will find this may line up with a lot of the other material of recent years, but it's a shame that this nice new transfer had so much squashing done in the mastering phase, with limiting or brickwalling applied so that there is no clipping, as you can see from the "peak" field in the 2010 files.

Here are the dynamic range logs for each taken from a bit-for-bit EAC extraction of the original CD's:

(note - I removed GDML from the 2010 folder for straight comparison of the 10 PHM tracks)

posted:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: C:\Nine Inch Nails - 1989 - Pretty Hate Machine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR   	   Peak     	   RMS      	 Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR14	  -0.03 dB	 -16.66 dB	 01 - Head Like A Hole.wav
 DR12	  -0.19 dB	 -16.07 dB	 02 - Terrible Lie.wav
 DR12	   over    	 -13.28 dB	 03 - Down In It.wav
 DR15	   over    	 -18.79 dB	 04 - Sanctified.wav
 DR13	  -1.21 dB	 -18.58 dB	 05 - Something I Can Never Have.wav
 DR13	   over    	 -16.50 dB	 06 - Kinda I Want To.wav
 DR12	   over    	 -13.95 dB	 07 - Sin.wav
 DR13	   over    	 -16.01 dB	 08 - That's What I Get.wav
 DR13	   over    	 -16.57 dB	 09 - The Only Time.wav
 DR13	   over    	 -16.24 dB	 10 - Ringfinger.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:    10
 Official DR value:  DR13

posted:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: C:\Nine Inch Nails - 2010 - Pretty Hate Machine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR   	   Peak     	   RMS      	 Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR5	  -0.08 dB	  -6.84 dB	 01 - Head Like A Hole.wav
 DR5	  -0.00 dB	  -7.07 dB	 02 - Terrible Lie.wav
 DR6	  -0.03 dB	  -6.92 dB	 03 - Down In It.wav
 DR7	   over    	  -8.79 dB	 04 - Sanctified.wav
 DR7	  -0.16 dB	 -10.86 dB	 05 - Something I Can Never Have.wav
 DR6	  -0.16 dB	  -8.49 dB	 06 - Kinda I Want To.wav
 DR6	  -0.16 dB	  -8.74 dB	 07 - Sin.wav
 DR7	  -0.16 dB	  -9.73 dB	 08 - That's What I Get.wav
 DR6	  -0.16 dB	  -8.93 dB	 09 - The Only Time.wav
 DR6	  -0.16 dB	  -9.14 dB	 10 - Ringfinger.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:    10
 Official DR value:  DR6

where'd you get those numbers? neither rip clips on my end, nor do the remaster RMS values hit quite that high.

 

11/20/10 1:54 PM

seasonsinthesky posted:
where'd you get those numbers? neither rip clips on my end, nor do the remaster RMS values hit quite that high.

They are both EAC rips of the 2 discs.
DR logs created using Tischmeyer Technology Dynamic Range Meter v1.4a



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2010 08:00AM by dobyblue.

 

11/20/10 2:08 PM

Oh geez. Not the loudness war bullshit again. Will it ever end?


posted:
This isn't anywhere near as bad as Death Magnetic
Last time I checked, Death Magnetic is from a band called Metallica, who, I believe, is SUPPOSED to be loud.


The majority of people, including me, don't pay attention to this.


Anyway, back to the original topic. I haven't listened to the remaster yet so I can't compare them yet. I probably won't notice any major differences anyway.

 

11/20/10 2:20 PM

I'm just going to say this...I'm not looking for any leaked tracks...I want this to be a new experience, and I look forward to getting the CD on Monday....If it's anything like the Beatles remastered CDs I'm sure it will sound better, It'd have to.

 

11/20/10 7:56 PM

I can verify the info dobyblue posted -- it's DEFINITELY louder.

Here's a waveform comparison I did of Ringfinger just to satisfy some of my own curiosities about the changes:

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i450/RobOSullivan/PHMcompare.jpg

I haven't had a chance to do anything more than spot-listen to a few tracks for now, but by tomorrow I hope to have had an opportunity to do so with a reasonably good set of headphones and using the FLAC audio files of the remastered tracks.

Without the benefit of having a full listen I can't really "review" the album, but I can say with the spot-checking I've done that PHM2010 DOES sound more clear, crisp, and more loud than the original. All good things in my opinion, so take it for whatever it's worth.

 

11/20/10 8:23 PM

patrick_nicholas posted:
Oh geez. Not the loudness war bullshit again. Will it ever end?


posted:
This isn't anywhere near as bad as Death Magnetic

Last time I checked, Death Magnetic is from a band called Metallica, who, I believe, is SUPPOSED to be loud.


The majority of people, including me, don't pay attention to this.


Anyway, back to the original topic. I haven't listened to the remaster yet so I can't compare them yet. I probably won't notice any major differences anyway.

So what you're saying is Nine Inch Nails isn't supposed to be loud? lol (just kidding!)

I don't think you understand the loudness wars, it's got nothing to do with "loudness", it's got to do with CD having a limitation to how loud it can go and when you make the quiet parts louder, the loud parts have nowhere to go, so you lose dynamic range in the process.

Here, humour me and take 1 minute and 54 seconds to watch this video and you'll better understand what the loudness wars are about.

[www.youtube.com]

For what it's worth, Master of Puppets, And Justice for All, Kill 'Em All and Ride the Lighting all have dynamic range of over 12dB on average on their original release, they sound great when you turn them up loud.

Here's the DR stats for the CD of And Justice For All - [www.dr.loudness-war.info]

 

11/20/10 8:36 PM

I pre-ordered mine on Amazon, and it isn't supposed to get here till the 25th - 30th. sad smiley

 

11/20/10 11:30 PM

I just posted this review on Best Buy's website after a thorough listening session. Enjoy.

21 years from the original release and several legal rights issues in-between, Trent Reznor finally gets a chance to tweak and remaster the debut album which put him on the map. For those of you expecting this album to be some massively re-worked "new version" of Pretty Hate Machine, you're going to need to check your expectations at the door. What this 2010 re-mastered version of Pretty Hate Machine IS, though... is a fresh coat of paint on a very groundbreaking album which stood to benefit from a little sonic housekeeping.

On an average set of speakers, there are not too terribly many differences between the 2010 and the 1989 versions of PHM immediately except for the strength in volume: where 1989's volume is quieter, sounds are less full in tone, and perhaps a little dated sounding, PHM2010 is a louder, more aggressive sounding version of itself.

That said... strap on a pair of average-to-good-quality headphones and not only does PHM2010 CRANK the volume, but the tracks are now more crisp, with the myriads of synths, tones, beeps, drones, guitars, drums and vocals all more appropriately coming through in the mix. Things simply pop when they should pop. The stereo dynamics in the instruments play very well, with the soundscapes and textures pinging between the right and left channels in my headphones playfully. It's a REAL treat. It's not exactly the same as the previously-released 5.1 Dolby Digital mix of The Downward Spiral, but then again there's a major difference in the number of channels for playback between a stereo mix and a 5.1 mix as well. Similar, yes. Same, no. And I'm not comparing them either -- just giving a reference.

Bear in mind, once again, nothing has really been altered as far as content here (except for the noteworthy inclusion of NIN's really sexy cover of Queen's Get Down, Make Love -- originally released on the SIN single), but rather sounds have been re-leveled and re-mixed and the stereo has been tweaked VERY masterfully. Crisp, clean, loud, and done RIGHT in my personal opinion.

If you're a fan of Nine Inch Nails, don't expect this to be a NEW album in the sense that you are buying something you have never before heard. You've heard this album; you just haven't heard it in a form this POLISHED before. It's gorgeous by re-design. Compared to PHM1989, this is a MUCH better sounding version. Highly recommended!

 

11/21/10 12:14 AM

I'm really let down.

The Dynamic Range Compression (loudness war filter) is just way over the top here. The 1989 version sounds way better. The only time I could imagine listening to the 2010 version is on an airplane to drown out the white noise.

Hoping a copy of the remaster without the dynamic range compression gets released at some point, and shocked that Reznor gave in to the loudness war.

 

11/21/10 6:38 AM

One person here answered the question as to whether this rerelease sounds good or not, and above all the blah, blah I'll take his word for it. The rest of you spend too much time with your heads up your asses and over thinking this stuff with way too much time on your hands, obviously. Its just music, not a global phenomenon set to change the way the world works. Loudness war this and loudness war that, statistics and numbers all over the place. Do you people actually enjoy listening to music for what it is or not? And yes I think Pretty Hate Machine 1989 sounds way too soft and dated for my liking, so from looking at all the numerical masturbation and wave form wankery on the screen in front of me, I'm really looking forward to hearing Pretty Hate Machine 2010 ripping a hole through my cones.

 

11/21/10 7:52 AM

I think original sounds more dark and thrilling, but i only heard remaster in mp3 by now

 

11/21/10 7:24 AM

Fluxx - I listened to it, and I find it really distracting to listen to at that level of loudness. NIN has always had a lot of quietness mixed with loudness, and now it just sounds like everything else, nothing but loud noise.

This has nothing to do with waveform analysis.

 

11/21/10 9:20 AM

winterny posted:
Fluxx - I listened to it, and I find it really distracting to listen to at that level of loudness. NIN has always had a lot of quietness mixed with loudness, and now it just sounds like everything else, nothing but loud noise.

This has nothing to do with waveform analysis.

Cool, a decent opinion going on here. Personally, I honestly don't mind loudly mastered albums/songs, as long as they're not grunting under the weight of digital distortion then its fine. If its too loud I'll just reach over for the volume knob and turn down the amp, problem solved, for me anyway. Look forward to hearing this album when I get my hands on it, I'm not a fan of the original so I'm not expecting much.

 

11/21/10 10:37 AM

Sounds great. Yes, there is a little bit of cutoff in the loudness to certain points, but I can tell you that the frequency of it is very low and that this is a great remaster for the most part. The good outweighs the bad, I really think so. Sound quality in general is excellent and overall more detailed than the 1989 version for sure. Good job Trent.



Now, bring us the new HTDA or NIN record we know you are secretly working on right now.

 

11/21/10 11:03 AM

Disappointing to me, but really, I guess a significant number of people like their music this way. I'll stick with the Barry Diament mastered original CD, and hopefully a future 5.1 release will be mastered for fidelity instead of loudness.

 

11/21/10 12:14 PM

anyone else notice on "The Only Time" it goes straight to the words "right now"

 

11/21/10 12:17 PM

rodheh posted:
Sounds great. Yes, there is a little bit of cutoff in the loudness to certain points, but I can tell you that the frequency of it is very low and that this is a great remaster for the most part. The good outweighs the bad, I really think so. Sound quality in general is excellent and overall more detailed than the 1989 version for sure. Good job Trent.



Now, bring us the new HTDA or NIN record we know you are secretly working on right now.

Their you go. "Sound quality in general is excellent and overall more detailed than the 1989 version for sure." Simple, no waveforms, no mathematical madness just the basics.

 

11/21/10 12:23 PM

Fluxx posted:
One person here answered the question as to whether this rerelease sounds good or not, and above all the blah, blah I'll take his word for it. The rest of you spend too much time with your heads up your asses and over thinking this stuff with way too much time on your hands, obviously. Its just music, not a global phenomenon set to change the way the world works. Loudness war this and loudness war that, statistics and numbers all over the place. Do you people actually enjoy listening to music for what it is or not? And yes I think Pretty Hate Machine 1989 sounds way too soft and dated for my liking, so from looking at all the numerical masturbation and wave form wankery on the screen in front of me, I'm really looking forward to hearing Pretty Hate Machine 2010 ripping a hole through my cones.

This.


I'm very excited for it. I love this album, and to me, it's more or less about areas where the bass (on the old version) was too high, or treble too high or too low, and they tweaked it just enough, adding some loudness, to make it sound more crystal and give you a full on the mouth experience. I don't give a shit about wavelengths and th enumberical masturbation as Fluxx put it, it's just music, and will be one of the greatest remasters, if not THE greatest, I'll ever buy or own.

 

11/21/10 12:49 PM

I'd like to add that yes, it sounds less dated. Around Broken/TDS age (non-reissue) sound. Still many years back, but any heavy NIN listener knows that their was a huge dating leap in the way those albums sounded (from PHM - Broken).

 

11/21/10 1:58 PM

You know, I don't care if it's louder. If I have my ipod hooked into my stereo in the car, I can barely hear PHM. I have turn the volume over 20, most normal albums are around 14. I hope it doesn't lose its details, but a little loudness / heaviness wont hurt.

 

11/21/10 4:28 PM

Kahi posted:
anyone else notice on "The Only Time" it goes straight to the words "right now"
No, what are you talking about?

 

11/21/10 4:05 PM

botleysmith posted:
Kahi posted:
anyone else notice on "The Only Time" it goes straight to the words "right now"
No, what are you talking about?
One of the bootlegs is like that, methinks Kahi doesn't have disc in hand yet

 

11/21/10 8:58 PM

phicry7220 posted:
You know, I don't care if it's louder. If I have my ipod hooked into my stereo in the car, I can barely hear PHM. I have turn the volume over 20, most normal albums are around 14. I hope it doesn't lose its details, but a little loudness / heaviness wont hurt.

My question is, what "normal albums" are you comparing this to?

I question sometimes what other music some of these people who claim to not care are actually listening to. I'm an old metalfag so I've listened to countless thrash albums. Go listen to Dokken's Breaking The Chains; that album's quiet as hell but that's why you *crank the volume.*

I started noticing the whole thing when I was mixing my first album. Whenever I cranked it up to max volume, it would distort my car speakers. (I listened to it in my car a lot since it was the same length as my commute to college.) Now, I recently put in my new album that I finished mixing in July (which is far quieter and much more dynamic) and I could crank it the whole way without any distortion. That's because it was more dynamic. The quiet parts were quiet and the loud parts were loud.

Here's the thing: Being louder is not necessarily bad. But if you do it too much, then everything loses its feeling. The things that're louder in the mix are louder *for a reason.* By making everything else louder, you fuck up the way the song feels.

I have an 'entire song' on my recent album that's quieter than the two songs that surround it. Why? Because I *want it to be.* You're supposed to let it be quieter than the others. That way the next one (which is very heavy and loud) feels *more* heavy.

It's like what Beavis and Butthead said about Radiohead's Creep. "It's like, the sucky part of the song *has* to be there, or else the really kickass part wouldn't seem as kickass."

 

11/21/10 10:01 PM

Nevermind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2010 11:13AM by Writch.

 

11/22/10 1:05 AM

I haven't listened all the way through yet but so far it sounds like a great job. The synths have been brought to the fore and you can pick out a lot more detail from them. Of course, this means the dynamic range has been reduced: but some of that synth work was barely audible originally. What the weenies are forgetting is more dynamic range does not necessarily mean better sound. And graphs tell you next to nothig about that.

Broken could benefit from a similar treatment. In particular the bass synth on last!

 

11/22/10 12:23 AM

It definitely sounds better than the original. The music is mush more refined and each track seems to jump out at you a bit more. All the synth and guitar parts have definitely had their edges rounded, too. They sound much smoother.

As for the vocals, They sound the same to me. The only real difference I can hear is on Head Like A Hole where the vocals in the chorus have a very audible amount of distortion on them - something that isn't very audible on the original. Also a few little quieter vocal tracks stand out more, like the little 'delay' vocals on Terrible Lie. Saying this, the real delayed vocs (especially the TERRIBLE LIE bit) are barely audible. There has definately been some rearranging going on here.

Overall it sounds awesome. Simple as.

 

11/22/10 12:49 AM

dobyblue posted:
1989

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7272/hlah1989.jpg

2010

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4269/hlah2010.jpg


OH SHIT!

Oh well!

$10

Disappointed to say the least!

Oh well!

At least it will be LOUDer!

Ideal master for...

A. Road workers
B. Airline passengers seated in 32E
C. ipod owners with stock earbuds
D. People with a proper stereo with a broken volume knob.
E. All of the above.

I have no problem boosting the levels of the orignal or re-EQing to bring out subtle details that may have been lost in the original mastering, but not at such a severe expense to the dynamic range of the original. First when you boost a recording significantly you are raising the noise floor. This will make quieter sections sound "noisier". Second, recordings that employ 0 dB or brick-wall limiting will have an artificial pumping sound as drum sounds such as crash cymbals will not be able to complete a natural arc to the sound and are "cut off" at the top of the event. Dynamic range delivers the "punch" or "power" to the music. Much of this may be lost to many people and I don't expect to convert others. By the same token, those of us who do "have an ear" for such matters shouldn't have their concerns discounted by trivial assertions of being "weenies" or "loudness war - blah, blah".

Peace,

mixter_

 
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